4 ms·

Construction workers, police officers, plumbers, retail salespeople and secretaries, among others, make significantly more with a degree than without one. Why?

Construction workers, police officers, plumbers, retail salespeople and secretaries, among others, make significantly more with a degree than without one. Why? Education helps people do higher-skilled work, get jobs with better-paying companies or open their own businesses. I would argue they earn more simply because of the signalling dynamics of possessing the degree, not that a college grad can do higher skilled work than a similarly situated non-grad. The question is is it fair/efficient to saddle young people with exorbitant debt and four extra years of classroom lecturing just to be able to competitively signal.

tesseract 15y ago
Signaling works precisely because the signal is expensive. I would be curious to see some data on whether, in countries where higher education is even more highly subsidized than it is in the US, having a degree has less of a signaling effect.
HaloZero 15y ago
It's also an indicator of a pursuit of knowledge beyond required. High school is mandatory, college is not. Acquiring a college degree is a sign that you were able to persist and acquire something without any enforcement. (There are cases when parents force you to college, etc. but I think those are less frequent and usually finishing college is a sign of dedication on your part).
jdhopeunique 15y ago
Also lost in the debate, it is not just the signalling effect or the acquired knowledge but the selection bias that is not taken into account. Consider this science experiment: A scientist is testing a "success" pill. He picks 2 groups filtered by standardized test scores. He gives the pill to the high scoring group and a placebo to the low scoring group. Those in the group receiving the non-placebo are found to be more successful and the scientist concludes that the "success" pill is effective. Preposterous? Yes. The scientist is not randomly selecting groups. This is precisely what happens in stories linking college and success. The filtering or selection bias is not addressed and would occur even if the signalling advantages were ruled out.
- randomdata 15y ago
  Exactly. It seems like a lot of potentially false conclusions are drawn from the data. Successfully completing a degree requires a significant amount of motivation and determination. Finding a good, high paying, job also requires a signifiant amount of motivation and determination. Perhaps motivated and determined people will earn more on average? People in higher class families are more likely to further their education. People in higher class families are more likely to have more business connections. Perhaps people from higher class families earn more on average? People who are good at and enjoy learning are more likely to go to college. People who are good at and enjoy learning are highly valued on the job. Perhaps people who learn quickly earn more? When all you have is correlation, an infinite number of conclusions can be reached. Why is it assumed that the degree is what makes the difference? It seems more likely to me that the attributes one is born with are much greater indicators of success.
yummyfajitas 15y ago
One possible way to test this: compare the outcomes of people with All But Degree to people with degrees. If human capital is the important factor then being 6 credits short of a 140 credit degree shouldn't affect outcomes. If signalling matters, it should have a rather large effect.
- paganel 15y ago
  > If human capital is the important factor then being 6 credits short of a 140 credit degree shouldn't affect outcomes. If signalling matters, it should have a rather large effect. It it matters, I'm a CS dropout from an an Eastern European country which is also part of the European Union. Let's say I've got 125 out of 140 credits (so I got pretty close to actually finishing it). Anyway, I have a pretty good job and all, but once in a while I receive a job offer that actually sounds interesting. It did happen to me to actually get rejected from such a job "because as you don't have a degree, and as we work with an European Union agency, and as said EU Agency requires that all our employees should have a CS degree, we're sorry to announce to you etc", as they elegantly put it. Some other guys said no to my salary requirement "because you don't have a CS degree, we won't receive the tax breaks given by the Government to us for hiring people with CS degrees, so we're going to pay you less". Fuck them, I said :) I don't know what the moral of the story should be. What I got out of it all is that I should always work in an environment very close to a meritocracy (and small startups seem to be the closest thing to this), and maybe later down the road open my own shop.
  - megablast 15y ago
    As someone who worked in the EU before, I was never asked to prove I had a degree or an honours degree. Have you been asked to prove it, or are you just being honest?
    - paganel 15y ago
      > or are you just being honest? I hope I'm being honest, why would I lie? Anyway, said company had a contract with a European Union Agency, and, as mentioned, said Agency was putting a major emphasis (as in more points awarded as part of the tender process) on sub-contractors that had only CS-graduates as programmers. And the "tax-deductions for companies hiring CS-graduates part" I'll admit, it's not an EU-wide, EU-mandated policy (hence my mention that the tax was collected by my country's Government), but my suspicion is that my country is not the only one adopting this particular tax treatment. I think the people that came up with this policy thought that this would somehow create an IT bonanza. It might achieve that, who knows? But you'll have to admit it has some perverse effects, such as non-graduates like myself being at a disadvantage compared to degree-holding programmers.

tesseract 15y ago

Signaling works precisely because the signal is expensive. I would be curious to see some data on whether, in countries where higher education is even more highly subsidized than it is in the US, having a degree has less of a signaling effect.

HaloZero 15y ago

It's also an indicator of a pursuit of knowledge beyond required. High school is mandatory, college is not. Acquiring a college degree is a sign that you were able to persist and acquire something without any enforcement. (There are cases when parents force you to college, etc. but I think those are less frequent and usually finishing college is a sign of dedication on your part).

jdhopeunique 15y ago

Also lost in the debate, it is not just the signalling effect or the acquired knowledge but the selection bias that is not taken into account. Consider this science experiment: A scientist is testing a "success" pill. He picks 2 groups filtered by standardized test scores. He gives the pill to the high scoring group and a placebo to the low scoring group. Those in the group receiving the non-placebo are found to be more successful and the scientist concludes that the "success" pill is effective. Preposterous? Yes. The scientist is not randomly selecting groups. This is precisely what happens in stories linking college and success. The filtering or selection bias is not addressed and would occur even if the signalling advantages were ruled out.

randomdata 15y ago
Exactly. It seems like a lot of potentially false conclusions are drawn from the data. Successfully completing a degree requires a significant amount of motivation and determination. Finding a good, high paying, job also requires a signifiant amount of motivation and determination. Perhaps motivated and determined people will earn more on average? People in higher class families are more likely to further their education. People in higher class families are more likely to have more business connections. Perhaps people from higher class families earn more on average? People who are good at and enjoy learning are more likely to go to college. People who are good at and enjoy learning are highly valued on the job. Perhaps people who learn quickly earn more? When all you have is correlation, an infinite number of conclusions can be reached. Why is it assumed that the degree is what makes the difference? It seems more likely to me that the attributes one is born with are much greater indicators of success.

yummyfajitas 15y ago

One possible way to test this: compare the outcomes of people with All But Degree to people with degrees. If human capital is the important factor then being 6 credits short of a 140 credit degree shouldn't affect outcomes. If signalling matters, it should have a rather large effect.

paganel 15y ago
> If human capital is the important factor then being 6 credits short of a 140 credit degree shouldn't affect outcomes. If signalling matters, it should have a rather large effect. It it matters, I'm a CS dropout from an an Eastern European country which is also part of the European Union. Let's say I've got 125 out of 140 credits (so I got pretty close to actually finishing it). Anyway, I have a pretty good job and all, but once in a while I receive a job offer that actually sounds interesting. It did happen to me to actually get rejected from such a job "because as you don't have a degree, and as we work with an European Union agency, and as said EU Agency requires that all our employees should have a CS degree, we're sorry to announce to you etc", as they elegantly put it. Some other guys said no to my salary requirement "because you don't have a CS degree, we won't receive the tax breaks given by the Government to us for hiring people with CS degrees, so we're going to pay you less". Fuck them, I said :) I don't know what the moral of the story should be. What I got out of it all is that I should always work in an environment very close to a meritocracy (and small startups seem to be the closest thing to this), and maybe later down the road open my own shop.
- megablast 15y ago
  As someone who worked in the EU before, I was never asked to prove I had a degree or an honours degree. Have you been asked to prove it, or are you just being honest?
  - paganel 15y ago
    > or are you just being honest? I hope I'm being honest, why would I lie? Anyway, said company had a contract with a European Union Agency, and, as mentioned, said Agency was putting a major emphasis (as in more points awarded as part of the tender process) on sub-contractors that had only CS-graduates as programmers. And the "tax-deductions for companies hiring CS-graduates part" I'll admit, it's not an EU-wide, EU-mandated policy (hence my mention that the tax was collected by my country's Government), but my suspicion is that my country is not the only one adopting this particular tax treatment. I think the people that came up with this policy thought that this would somehow create an IT bonanza. It might achieve that, who knows? But you'll have to admit it has some perverse effects, such as non-graduates like myself being at a disadvantage compared to degree-holding programmers.