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The efficiency of Visa isn't comparable because it solves a completely different problem than Bitcoin. And yes, in most cases we can pay each other just fine w

by shawnz 6y ago

The efficiency of Visa isn't comparable because it solves a completely different problem than Bitcoin. And yes, in most cases we can pay each other just fine without Bitcoin. That doesn't negate its specific usefulness. It's already well documented that you don't see the trustlessness and decentralization to be a value for you personally. If that's the case then simply don't buy any. Those who do get value from those properties will use it, as is the case now.

arcticbull 6y ago
Sorry its no longer that simple. It's wasting as much power as all of Switzerland and all of Austria combined. 52MT of CO2 emitted annually. 10kT of e-waste. And growing like grey goo. [1] Dormant coal facilities are now being re-activated to hash noise as fast as they can. [2] This is literally everyone's problem now and we should all do everything we can, tell everyone we can, to shut this down before it's too late. Your game of pass-the-spreadsheet-cell is now actively threatening the lives of people on the planet at probably the most critical time in human history re: global warming. I have general distaste for the MLM nature of most coins in this frothy climate - but those $SAFEMOON and $CUMMIES folks are just going to lose money, not ruin Earth. I mostly do everything I can to end Bitcoin by raising awareness. You should too. I'd be just as vocal if your coin was based on proof-of-killing-elephants or proof-of-having-a-tire-fire-on-your-lawn. [1] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption [2] https://www.newsbtc.com/news/bitcoin/australian-power-company-reopen-coal-power-plant-mine-bitcoin/ https://www.newsbtc.com/news/bitcoin/australian-power-compan...
- shawnz 6y ago
  As is commonly pointed out in these threads, that's likely only around 60% the usage of idle always-on electronics in the US. Isn't that a way more obvious low hanging fruit? Human activity uses energy, that's unavoidable.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    > As is commonly pointed out in these threads, that's likely only around 60% the usage of idle always-on electronics in the US. Luckily Bitcoin mining is utterly centralized. In fact turning off a single mine in Xinjiang cut power consumption by 1/4-1/2. > Isn't that a way more obvious low hanging fruit? No. Is idle device power in the US rising? Some data shows one of the biggest sources of idle power is halogen bulbs being left on which are being replaced with LEDs over time - unlike the exponential rise in BTC power consumption. Not to mention, it requires 400,000,000 people to each act. Killing Bitcoin requires a few people to act. Much easier. And of course, both should be done. > Human activity uses energy, that's unavoidable. Yes, much more when we choose intentionally 400,000X less efficient technologies because of idealism or because they're "neat." Living in a society requires we make compromises to ensure our shared survival. Our consumption is the sum of our choices. Time to start making some better ones. This whataboutism and nihilism is pretty much a guarantee of inaction on all fronts. Step up and do the right thing!
    - shawnz 6y ago
      I never said anything about which technology was easier to kill. The question is which technology can be made more efficient while retaining its utility. The subtle implication is obviously that Bitcoin isn't useful, but what is the point of writing all this just to essentially restate your presupposition that Bitcoin isn't useful? I already know you believe it's not useful, but it's not up to a single individual to decide that. > when we choose intentionally 400,000X less efficient technologies because of idealism or because they're "neat." Like I mentioned already there's no reasonable way to compare its efficiency to technologies like Visa which solve a totally different problem. So this is a useless and misleading metric aside from the obvious strawman that cryptocurrencies are only useful because they are "neat".
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        > The subtle implication is obviously that Bitcoin isn't useful, but what is the point of writing all this just to essentially restate your presupposition that Bitcoin isn't useful? Not talking about Bitcoin, just PoW. The implication is clear: it uses a ton of energy and achieves almost nothing with it relative to competitive technologies. > Like I mentioned already there's no reasonable way to compare its efficiency to technologies like Visa which solve a totally different problem. Yes there is, it's by dividing into kWh per transaction. You can't pretend this away because you don't like the landslide loss. [edit] I'm sure you well know those counterarguments are meaningless because they fly in the face of math. Look this is typical of crypto folks, who know well they're melting the ice caps to enrich themselves. It's shameful, and you should feel bad for participating in this. The comparison in the domain is against, for instance proof of stake coins.
- ziml77 6y ago
  A point that I always try bring up is that adding more mining capacity shifts the distribution of coins but it doesn't change the rate of mining at all. Ideally you'd have the compute power be tiny amounts divided up over a large number of people. But that would require everyone participating to be principled and using Bitcoin because of its decentralized nature instead of as a way to make money. Human nature would never let that happen.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Indeed, because proof of waste will centralize around the place where the wasted resources are the cheapest.
- billytetrud 6y ago
  Bitcoin isn't a country. It's ridiculous to compare bitcoin's energy usage to countries because it's international. Video gaming uses more energy than bitcoin mining, so stop parroting this BS false narrative that bitcoin is so wasteful.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    > Bitcoin isn't a country. It's ridiculous to compare bitcoin's energy usage to countries because it's international. Video gaming uses more energy than bitcoin mining, so stop parroting this BS false narrative that bitcoin is so wasteful. Your point about video games is pretty asinine because a meaningful portion of the 8 billion people on earth playing video games. We have virtually nobody using Bitcoin because its so incredibly hamstrung. [2] Based on this data [3] playing video games for 4.4 hours a day for an entire year consumes 823kWh. A single bitcoin transaction requires 1127.77kWh. [1]. So you can either play 6 hours of video games on your 3090 in ultra 1440p144Hz - or move 250 bytes of data. Bitcoin's 3TPS currently yields as much CO2 as burning 1 ton of coal per second and generates 10kT of non-recyclable e-waste, which also includes a bunch of gold that has to be mined to make the systems in the first place. [1] All for 3TPS lol. [1] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption [2] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/global-gaming-computers-cost-10b-annually-in-energy https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/global-gaming-c... [3] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/global-gaming-computers-cost-10b-annually-in-energy https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/global-gaming-c...
    - billytetrud 6y ago
      > Your point about video games is pretty asinine Well, I would have good points I could write. However, if you're just going to insult me, I'm not going to waste my time.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        Hm did I offend? If so my bad! Cheers and enjoy your evening. I do however suspect you have no good points to share and hence your exit from this debate. Your point may have been asinine (I do not plan to walk that back) but that says nothing of you, it wasn't a value judgement on the speaker.

by shawnz 6y ago

arcticbull 6y ago

Sorry its no longer that simple. It's wasting as much power as all of Switzerland and all of Austria combined. 52MT of CO2 emitted annually. 10kT of e-waste. And growing like grey goo. [1] Dormant coal facilities are now being re-activated to hash noise as fast as they can. [2] This is literally everyone's problem now and we should all do everything we can, tell everyone we can, to shut this down before it's too late. Your game of pass-the-spreadsheet-cell is now actively threatening the lives of people on the planet at probably the most critical time in human history re: global warming. I have general distaste for the MLM nature of most coins in this frothy climate - but those $SAFEMOON and $CUMMIES folks are just going to lose money, not ruin Earth. I mostly do everything I can to end Bitcoin by raising awareness. You should too. I'd be just as vocal if your coin was based on proof-of-killing-elephants or proof-of-having-a-tire-fire-on-your-lawn. [1] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption [2] https://www.newsbtc.com/news/bitcoin/australian-power-company-reopen-coal-power-plant-mine-bitcoin/ https://www.newsbtc.com/news/bitcoin/australian-power-compan...

shawnz 6y ago
As is commonly pointed out in these threads, that's likely only around 60% the usage of idle always-on electronics in the US. Isn't that a way more obvious low hanging fruit? Human activity uses energy, that's unavoidable.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  > As is commonly pointed out in these threads, that's likely only around 60% the usage of idle always-on electronics in the US. Luckily Bitcoin mining is utterly centralized. In fact turning off a single mine in Xinjiang cut power consumption by 1/4-1/2. > Isn't that a way more obvious low hanging fruit? No. Is idle device power in the US rising? Some data shows one of the biggest sources of idle power is halogen bulbs being left on which are being replaced with LEDs over time - unlike the exponential rise in BTC power consumption. Not to mention, it requires 400,000,000 people to each act. Killing Bitcoin requires a few people to act. Much easier. And of course, both should be done. > Human activity uses energy, that's unavoidable. Yes, much more when we choose intentionally 400,000X less efficient technologies because of idealism or because they're "neat." Living in a society requires we make compromises to ensure our shared survival. Our consumption is the sum of our choices. Time to start making some better ones. This whataboutism and nihilism is pretty much a guarantee of inaction on all fronts. Step up and do the right thing!
  - shawnz 6y ago
    I never said anything about which technology was easier to kill. The question is which technology can be made more efficient while retaining its utility. The subtle implication is obviously that Bitcoin isn't useful, but what is the point of writing all this just to essentially restate your presupposition that Bitcoin isn't useful? I already know you believe it's not useful, but it's not up to a single individual to decide that. > when we choose intentionally 400,000X less efficient technologies because of idealism or because they're "neat." Like I mentioned already there's no reasonable way to compare its efficiency to technologies like Visa which solve a totally different problem. So this is a useless and misleading metric aside from the obvious strawman that cryptocurrencies are only useful because they are "neat".
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      > The subtle implication is obviously that Bitcoin isn't useful, but what is the point of writing all this just to essentially restate your presupposition that Bitcoin isn't useful? Not talking about Bitcoin, just PoW. The implication is clear: it uses a ton of energy and achieves almost nothing with it relative to competitive technologies. > Like I mentioned already there's no reasonable way to compare its efficiency to technologies like Visa which solve a totally different problem. Yes there is, it's by dividing into kWh per transaction. You can't pretend this away because you don't like the landslide loss. [edit] I'm sure you well know those counterarguments are meaningless because they fly in the face of math. Look this is typical of crypto folks, who know well they're melting the ice caps to enrich themselves. It's shameful, and you should feel bad for participating in this. The comparison in the domain is against, for instance proof of stake coins.
ziml77 6y ago
A point that I always try bring up is that adding more mining capacity shifts the distribution of coins but it doesn't change the rate of mining at all. Ideally you'd have the compute power be tiny amounts divided up over a large number of people. But that would require everyone participating to be principled and using Bitcoin because of its decentralized nature instead of as a way to make money. Human nature would never let that happen.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Indeed, because proof of waste will centralize around the place where the wasted resources are the cheapest.
billytetrud 6y ago
Bitcoin isn't a country. It's ridiculous to compare bitcoin's energy usage to countries because it's international. Video gaming uses more energy than bitcoin mining, so stop parroting this BS false narrative that bitcoin is so wasteful.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  > Bitcoin isn't a country. It's ridiculous to compare bitcoin's energy usage to countries because it's international. Video gaming uses more energy than bitcoin mining, so stop parroting this BS false narrative that bitcoin is so wasteful. Your point about video games is pretty asinine because a meaningful portion of the 8 billion people on earth playing video games. We have virtually nobody using Bitcoin because its so incredibly hamstrung. [2] Based on this data [3] playing video games for 4.4 hours a day for an entire year consumes 823kWh. A single bitcoin transaction requires 1127.77kWh. [1]. So you can either play 6 hours of video games on your 3090 in ultra 1440p144Hz - or move 250 bytes of data. Bitcoin's 3TPS currently yields as much CO2 as burning 1 ton of coal per second and generates 10kT of non-recyclable e-waste, which also includes a bunch of gold that has to be mined to make the systems in the first place. [1] All for 3TPS lol. [1] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption [2] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/global-gaming-computers-cost-10b-annually-in-energy https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/global-gaming-c... [3] https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/global-gaming-computers-cost-10b-annually-in-energy https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/global-gaming-c...
  - billytetrud 6y ago
    > Your point about video games is pretty asinine Well, I would have good points I could write. However, if you're just going to insult me, I'm not going to waste my time.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Hm did I offend? If so my bad! Cheers and enjoy your evening. I do however suspect you have no good points to share and hence your exit from this debate. Your point may have been asinine (I do not plan to walk that back) but that says nothing of you, it wasn't a value judgement on the speaker.