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> HKMap.live is an app that Apple took down to appease China. The AppStore creates a single point of failure for nations to target and cut off. Most people here

> HKMap.live is an app that Apple took down to appease China. The AppStore creates a single point of failure for nations to target and cut off. Most people here think it was pretty shitty to remove that app while Hong Kongers were fighting for a voice. China has the great firewall. I'm not an expert on it, but I assume whether Apple allows alternative app stores is entirely beside the point of whether people in HK would be able to download and use a networked app. >> how is this different than $ACTIVITY, except for one day of the year or in one city? Attention will suddenly be directed towards the less stringent alternative > I have provided a clear example. HKMap.live You have not provided an argument as to how more attention, both positive and negative, wouldn't suddenly be paid to the alternative. If Apple allowed alternative apps stores, China could start applying pressure to them. Or, as I previously mentioned, firewall them. Apple, a $Trillion company, caved, why wouldn't a lesser organization? > It's so weird that you bring up Windows as the alternative to iOS rather than... the Mac Because Windows was the previous platform that most tech-unsavvy people used, and it was a cesspool of malware. My relatives didn't go from Windows machines to Macs or Androids, they went from Windows machines to iPads. It's those people I have in mind when I make these arguments as to the value of an app store. If there are relevant market metrics that show that I am wrong here, I'm glad to see them. I'm just speaking from personal experience: people who use iOS and Macs don't come to me with the same kinds of problems as Windows users (which I also struggled with for years). Therefore I have a strong interest in not letting iOS become something like Windows. I also still think that macOS is a more secure OS by design vs Windows, so that may be another reason I'm picking on Windows. And people are constantly complaining about that, too, how their computing platforms are being locked down and will soon be devoid of any freedoms. To me it always sounds like the argument is coming from a place where they see some nefarious villain twirling his moustache and devising schemes to keep the masses in the grip of control. I see an organization of many many humans making engineering tradeoffs to create what are, IMO, extremely impressive devices and systems. Let me be very clear about one thing: > Maybe in your eyes that's the exact same thing as "The Purge" > there's actually a lot of stuff that doesn't cleanly fall between good and "murder level bad" > the situation on the Mac isn't a catastrophic hellscape and thus doesn't serve sensationalist fear mongering > There are a lot of obvious options in between "only the AppStore" and "MadMax dystopia where anything goes." I was very clear that I wasn't comparing the situation with the app store to actual literal murder, but that comparison weaves throughout most of your reply. My point was entirely about the implementation and not at all about the regulated activity. >> "Ignoring the obvious difference" I'd be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe the difference wasn't obvious to you, if you hadn't sarcastically quoted that exact phrase in your responses.

tolmasky 5y ago
> China has the great firewall. I'm not an expert on it, but I assume whether Apple allows alternative app stores is entirely beside the point of whether people in HK would be able to download and use a networked app. The HKMap.live situation happened before the Chinese Firewall was in place in Hong Kong (2019), so that's really not an excuse. Regardless, the great firewall doesn't necessarily prevent person-to-person sharing of an app for instance. Ultimately, you should absolutely put the ball in their court to actively have to fight the spreading of the app as opposed to being a willing participant. BTW, Tor, that thing you ignored in the rest of your post, was designed exactly to fight against things like the Chinese Firewall. > I also still think that macOS is a more secure OS by design vs Windows, so that may be another reason I'm picking on Windows. This just makes no sense. If you are making a case against a change, you don't point to the worst implementation of it just because it's the worst, especially when the party that would actually be implementing the alternative has already successfully done so on another platform. It's like a state arguing against marijuana legalization by pointing to a completely different country instead of many of the other US states that have successfully legalized it without catastrophic results. iOS is also "more secure by design". So why do you assume iOS would become Windows and not macOS? There is no logic here, just the desire to use an outdated and more convenient comparison point. If you honestly believe that iOS without the AppStore would become Windows and not the Mac, then you have a very bizarrely low opinion of the engineers on iOS. > I was very clear that I wasn't comparing the situation with the app store to actual literal murder, but that comparison weaves throughout most of your reply. My point was entirely about the implementation and not at all about the regulated activity. Yup, and I have provided several great examples of why the situation is very different, including many examples of things that are not "bad" but Apple could not want on the store. Like Tor. And FireFox. All of which you ignored. I also showed examples of how it doesn't have to be a free-for-all that everyone must be subjected to, and that there are other ways to do it. Also ignored. I addressed the main substance of your argument, while still finding it hilarious that the best analogy you could come up with was an "abstract version of the purge". Listen, I am honestly glad that the circumstances in your life are such that Apple's decisions may not have a meaningful impact on your ability to escape censorship or fight for your right to be heard, but I hope someday you'll understand that these real scenarios that have actually taken place matter as much as your hypothetical worst-case scenarios that involve Apple implementing a slightly different system in the most un-Apply way, as opposed to the way they've done so with tremendous success on their other platform.

tolmasky 5y ago

> China has the great firewall. I'm not an expert on it, but I assume whether Apple allows alternative app stores is entirely beside the point of whether people in HK would be able to download and use a networked app. The HKMap.live situation happened before the Chinese Firewall was in place in Hong Kong (2019), so that's really not an excuse. Regardless, the great firewall doesn't necessarily prevent person-to-person sharing of an app for instance. Ultimately, you should absolutely put the ball in their court to actively have to fight the spreading of the app as opposed to being a willing participant. BTW, Tor, that thing you ignored in the rest of your post, was designed exactly to fight against things like the Chinese Firewall. > I also still think that macOS is a more secure OS by design vs Windows, so that may be another reason I'm picking on Windows. This just makes no sense. If you are making a case against a change, you don't point to the worst implementation of it just because it's the worst, especially when the party that would actually be implementing the alternative has already successfully done so on another platform. It's like a state arguing against marijuana legalization by pointing to a completely different country instead of many of the other US states that have successfully legalized it without catastrophic results. iOS is also "more secure by design". So why do you assume iOS would become Windows and not macOS? There is no logic here, just the desire to use an outdated and more convenient comparison point. If you honestly believe that iOS without the AppStore would become Windows and not the Mac, then you have a very bizarrely low opinion of the engineers on iOS. > I was very clear that I wasn't comparing the situation with the app store to actual literal murder, but that comparison weaves throughout most of your reply. My point was entirely about the implementation and not at all about the regulated activity. Yup, and I have provided several great examples of why the situation is very different, including many examples of things that are not "bad" but Apple could not want on the store. Like Tor. And FireFox. All of which you ignored. I also showed examples of how it doesn't have to be a free-for-all that everyone must be subjected to, and that there are other ways to do it. Also ignored. I addressed the main substance of your argument, while still finding it hilarious that the best analogy you could come up with was an "abstract version of the purge". Listen, I am honestly glad that the circumstances in your life are such that Apple's decisions may not have a meaningful impact on your ability to escape censorship or fight for your right to be heard, but I hope someday you'll understand that these real scenarios that have actually taken place matter as much as your hypothetical worst-case scenarios that involve Apple implementing a slightly different system in the most un-Apply way, as opposed to the way they've done so with tremendous success on their other platform.