22 ms·

I just built an engine for my car. One thing I gained an appreciation for was how CHEAP cars and engines are. There's probably nothing else with as precise mach

I just built an engine for my car. One thing I gained an appreciation for was how CHEAP cars and engines are. There's probably nothing else with as precise machining that is as inexpensive. Engine cylinders are honed to accuracies that are less than 1 thousandth of an inch. Crank journals as well and rod journals. This is all precise machine work with metal. I use inches here because in machine work thousandths of inches is the language du jour. Transmissions are similar works of very precise and clean machine work. The distance between a crank bearing or rod bearing is less than 2 thousandths on modern engines. A small amount of oil in that tiny space is all that keeps your engine from having metal on metal seizure. So one would think that when EVs reach the same scale they will be significantly cheaper than ICE vehicles.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tmh88j 5y ago
Nice! What engine did you build? >The distance between a crank bearing or rod bearing is less than 2 thousandths on modern engines. A small amount of oil in that tiny space is all that keeps your engine from having metal on metal seizure. The BMW S65 and S85 engines are prime examples of what happens when the wrong tolerances are chosen. I can't think of another engine family where rod bearings are considered a maintenance item.
- specialp 5y ago
  I built an LSX (Aftermarket GM) iron block engine (V8 LS) for a CTS V. I had to get some very precise tools (Have to measure to 10,000ths) or they were useless for bearing clearances and verifying cylinder diameters. My cylinders were 4.155 bore, and the bearing clearances were around 1.8 thousandths. Forged pistons, rods and crank. I had cracked a cylinder/piston on the original LSA. I did not trust anyone to do the work so I did a lot of research and did it all myself. I appreciate someone asking because my friends and software dev co workers aren't interested :)
  - tmh88j 5y ago
    >I had cracked a cylinder/piston on the original LSA. I did not trust anyone to do the work so I did a lot of research and did it all myself I love working on cars so I totally get wanting to do that, but why didn't you trust someone else to do the work? There are probably more reputable LS builders across the US than any other engine family.
    - mywittyname 5y ago
      It helps that they are abundant (in the hundreds of millions units produced), have been in use for decades (since the mid-50s), and are simple to work on (as evidence by the OP randomly learning to machine one). As cool as 2-atom thick plasma transfer wire arc cylinder liners are, that's not something which will ever be available to a layman.
      - mgarfias 5y ago
        I really doubt the OP did the machine work himself, those tools are not affordable for just using once or twice. Buying bore gages and mics however is totally doable. And no, the LS motors have been in use since '97. Including the gen1/2 small blocks doesn't count, there are no shared parts between them.
    - esaym 5y ago
      It sounds like he wanted some very precise work done. Quality in the blue collar trades has gone to nil in the last decade. And if you do find someone that is very detailed and "by the book" level of quality, you are going to pay 3X the normal labor rate. For instance, this is a performance transmission shop [0] that regularly takes apart "precision" rebuilt transmissions only to find they were not done right at all. [0] https://youtu.be/aI5iO2YSHMs https://youtu.be/aI5iO2YSHMs
      - tmh88j 5y ago
        LS engines are among the most common engines in custom built cars, and there are countless shops out there who specialize in them. No offense to him or you, but it's quite ridiculous to believe you can do a better job building an engine on your first try than shops like Texas Speed who have been doing it for decades with full blown R&D labs and regularly build 2000+ horsepower motors, all with highly skilled machinists and engineers using professional equipment that the average person would never be able to afford. Edit - For reference here's a video of the shop I'm referring to. They're far from a podunk operation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HgwF5dISmU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HgwF5dISmU
- kirse 5y ago
  Subaru EJ motors munch through rod bearings quite happily.
  - samstave 5y ago
    What are the indicators that replacing them is neigh?
    - Prcmaker 5y ago
      In my experience with these, when I've heard the first indicator to do it, the damage is done. Standard regular maintenance hasn't identified the issue in advance. I'd be curious to see whether long term monitoring of particulates in oil can make an help though.
- zeusk 5y ago
  Any race or high power engine, especially those that rev quite high will need rebuild - not just in bottom end but often with piston rings and valves as well. You don't really hear about those other engines much because their buyers understand that a race engine needs more maintenance than any other road car. Also, not beating on the engine until oil has warmed up to temp will elongate the bearing lifespan quite a bit. I have a friend with E60 6mt S85 that has factory bearings at 110k mi and has perfect oil analysis results.
  - tmh88j 5y ago
    The S65 and S85 are road car engines, not racecar engines. They're also hardly BMW's highest performing motors. Even Dinan built engines don't suffer from that problem.
    - zeusk 5y ago
      They're meant to be dual duty. There aren't any road car engines I'm aware of that use individual throttle bodies or 12+ compression without direct injection.
      - tmh88j 5y ago
        The S54 engine which came before the S65/85, was also high revving, had 11.5:1 compression ratio and didn't have any of the rod bearing issues. The 20v Toyota 4AGE also had them too with a high compression ratio.
        jcoby 5y ago
        The S54 absolutely had rod bearing issues. There was a recall on the 2001-2003.5 M3s to replace them and BMW switched to 60w oil as part of the remediation. They’re still having issues to this day. The S54 is also notorious for VANOS issues and cam drive failures. I had to replace the solenoid pack on mine but elected to not upgrade the drive while I was in there.
        zeusk 5y ago
- Grazester 5y ago
  I thought once you replaced the crappy OEM bearings you were all set on these engines. I guess it is not the case?
swiley 5y ago
I've always felt cars were like computers; most people (me included) pay a premium for something mediocre because they don't want to bother understanding it. My personal solution is to live near the metro and bike as much as possible.
- jacobsenscott 5y ago
  Mediocre in what way? Buy almost any new car from a well known brand today and it will run for 200,000+ miles. You almost need to deliberately buy a mediocre car. Biking and taking the metro is better for the environment, your health, and your budget though. If you are fortunate enough to have that option.
pram 5y ago
I think automatic transmissions are more impressive looking than engines when they're open. They resemble EV motors too!
- benlivengood 5y ago
  Automatic transmissions also have hydraulic logic gates in the valve body (implemented with check-balls and piston servos), even if they're also electronically controlled. Drag-racers will reprogram the valve body to change the shift order, have launch control, etc.
- Ambroos 5y ago
  VW group has a dual-clutch automatic transmission that includes an EV motor for their plug-in hybrids, the DQ400E. It looks pretty cool indeed!
kingsuper20 5y ago
>So one would think that when EVs reach the same scale they will be significantly cheaper than ICE vehicles. I expect that batteries are the only hangup, there's probably not that much magic left in an electric motor. Additional cost for regen brakes of course. I agree on the amazing cheapness of it all if you stick with the common stuff. That, along with the low cost of flat panel TVs is a miracle of the modern age.
- piva00 5y ago
  > there's probably not that much magic left in an electric motor. I believe this sentence has been said about many technologies in the past that definitely invalidated it. I'm more playing devil's advocate than trying to falsify you, likely for being burned sometimes reading or, worse, stating it, haha.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    There isn't much more efficiency to be gained in the electric motor world. Motors typically get 90% of theoretical efficiency, so any improvements there will be modest. Substantial improvements in other metrics might be had, but they probably won't massively impact EV's (weight and costs of the motor are both a small part of the total for a car)
- londons_explore 5y ago
  > Additional cost for regen brakes of course. Regen braking has no physical cost associated - it's pure software/firmware. The exact same hardware that is used to power the car forwards can be used for regen braking. It can be as simple as a single negative sign in the code to cause the phase to be 180 degrees out, current to flow backwards, torque to go the other way, and the battery to be charged instead of discharged. One day regen braking will take over hydraulic brakes, and another big cost/complexity of a car will be eliminated. The only reason that doesn't happen today is there are lots of laws and regulations requiring hydraulic brakes, and braking systems typically require more redundancy than power systems.
  - 5y ago
mfer 5y ago
If people were willing to pay the higher cost for the same feature set, why would they well them for cheaper? Why not pocket the extra profit? I don't like this line of thinking but I'm sure it's going to or already is happening.
- clairity 5y ago
  competition, a bedrock element of fair markets, capitalism, and efficient economic allocation, something we seem to have collectively lost sight of.
- admax88q 5y ago
  ... Because the whole nature of market competition? People will still choose the cheaper option if its available.
  - ianai 5y ago
    I’m starting to think it may just be minimizing cost. Theoretically that just means “maximize profit”, but I suspect in practice it means a whole slew of bad behavior and design choices. I.e. Pay for the part that’s .0001 cent cheaper than another option, despite the cheaper part possibly being a fire hazard.
elihu 5y ago
The raw materials may continue to cost more for EVs. Motor windings are generally copper, and batteries contain lithium and (usually) cobalt and nickel. Permanent magnet motors sometimes contain rare earths. One could make an EV with aluminum motor windings and electrical cabling, no rare earth magnets, and lithium iron phosphate batteries. That would keep expensive materials to a minimum. EVs don't need a catalytic converter, so that's a big thing in their favor. I'm looking forward to mass manufacturing continuing to bring down EV component prices. I think we're a long ways from the point where material costs are the bulk of the expense.
- the_cat_kittles 5y ago
  cmon man. the total weight of pricey metals in a car is so low, there is no way its going to offset the cost of precision machining. tolerances < 1 thou and callouts for surface finish and perpendicularity are expensive!
  - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
    I'm sure a motor is cheaper than an engine (less steps to make), but they still require precision manufacturing, and all the other parts aside from the motor (driveshaft, axles, brakes, etc.) are more or less the same. Plus, the cost of those other materials is going to increase if demand for EVs goes up.
    - the_cat_kittles 5y ago
      evs could drive lithium but i really doubt they would influence copper that much, since it is used so much already
      - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
        I think the more constraining commodities are things like rare earths[0] and other important metals like cobalt. [0]: I know they aren't that rare, but they aren't mined/processed in many places and it takes a long time to bring a new mine online.
kccqzy 5y ago
> One thing I gained an appreciation for was how CHEAP cars and engines are. There's probably nothing else with as precise machining that is as inexpensive. Not to denigrate the amount of engineering that went into car engines, but literally, what about chips? Devices that contain billions of transistors, arranged precisely on the order of nanometers. Yet they cost only hundreds of dollars.
- specialp 5y ago
  Yes you are referring to another insanely complex thing that is very cheap relative to making one of cost due to mass production. But it isn't machined metal :) I didn't say I don't appreciate electronics too.
- akiselev 5y ago
  They're apples and oranges. Chips are not machined, they're etched in batches. Their "tolerances", so to speak, are limited by the wavelengths of visible or UV light they use for creating the masks and exposing the photoresist that protects the wafer from hydrofluoric acid and other etchants. There's no mechanical force involved, except to spin wafers to apply coatings and move them between each stage of the process. Engine blocks, on the other hand, are CNC machined one at a time and the force of machining steel causes vibrations that move the cutting tools thousands of nanometers back and forth. Placing both in the same building, for example, would likely cripple the semiconductor fab. Having a machine shop in China make a one off would likely cost as much as a luxury car.
formerly_proven 5y ago
> I use inches here because in machine work thousandths of inches is the language du jour. Only in the USA ;)
- alexvoda 5y ago
  The rest of the world figured that using prefixes with a predefined universal multiplier is more practical. Therefore you can use the milifoot equal to a thousandth of a foot, or the kiloinch equal to one thousand inches, or the microyard equal to one millionth of a yard, maybe even the centifurlong equal to one hundredth of a furlong. We are quiet proud of our prefixes. Now if only we would decide on a single reference unit to which to apply the prefixes. Conversion from megainch to hectofurlong is rather inconvenient.
ryandrake 5y ago
Not only the tight measurements, but I've always been amazed at the precise timing of all the little moving parts, the valves all opening and closing at precise to-the-millisecond times so that each stroke happens, at 6000 RPM! So impressive. Especially with an interference engine, where getting that timing wrong means bent valves.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  Mmm.. not really. It's just a cam and a spring. Pretty easy to get that bit working by yourself. Variable valve timing and lift is much more impressive.
Animats 5y ago
I just built an engine for my car. One thing I gained an appreciation for was how CHEAP cars and engines are. There's probably nothing else with as precise machining that is as inexpensive. When cars started getting electronic engine controls, there was much internal grumbling about the cost. One Ford production guy, on hearing that the engine controller cost about $100, said "I can make the whole engine for 100 bucks."
slver 5y ago
How about your phone.
kokanator 5y ago
Anyone who has the inclination to build an engine, should. It is super rewarding not to mention you get to buy a bunch of really cool tools. I build a 350 Windsor from the block. The research and design decisions were one of the best parts of the project. Then to put it all together and realize the power was amazing.
- Prcmaker 5y ago
  Ford (Aus) 4.0 was a great first build for me. I'm now taking my time on a Toyota 4K 1300cc, learning a lot more, and taking the time to design new components for it. Can't recommend it highly enough, though not for everyone to be sure.
gtvwill 5y ago
> "I use inches here because in machine work thousandths of inches is the language du jour." Yeah not in Australia unless your machinist is >50 years old. Metric is more accurate/easier/less prone to mistakes. Metric is what we use.
- specialp 5y ago
  I'm not denying the metric system. Just in the USA it is thou period. and if the measurement is a consistent unit of whatever it works. Also GM (and Holden in oz) are inch based. So using metric will subject you to mistakes possibly. I agree though in science SI is the way to go
  - gtvwill 5y ago
    Yeah I cut my teeth on Subaru engines (helped having a gf who was a subi then telsa mechanic walking me through it). Subi are all metric tho. My workshop is a mix of metric for new gear and imperial from my old mans days running a farm. We even have some stuff thats neither metric or US imperial, but is british witworth imperial...so different again and just enough to make a difference. Makes for some confusing repairs when your working with stuff that's had a mix of all 3 systems due to a long life of repairs.
- s5300 5y ago
  Still widely used and taught in the machine shops of highly reputable universities over here in the U.S. If you're under 40 and can't use metric and imperial jargon without a second thought in the shop here that's a different problem. I personally enjoy doing machine shop-esque metal fabrication in metric and woodshop type things in imperial, but all machine shop instructors I've met through several good stem uni's that look even slightly middle aged love to talk in thou of inch, some to the point of getting quite physically frustrated when asked where the metric drill index/reamer set are in otherwise highly stocked shops... Also, I've noticed and heard the same from others in surrounding states - Fluid Dynamics professors love to include absolutely unecessary boatloads of strange units and conversions in coursework/exams to apparently "prepare us for the shitshow that is industry"
- 5y ago
CRConrad 5y ago
> I use inches here because in machine work thousandths of inches is the language du jour. I'll make a wild guess: In the USA. EDIT: Heh, sorry... See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26991690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26991690 . This time I really thought I'd checked, but there was lots of catalyst talk in between.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tmh88j 5y ago

Nice! What engine did you build? >The distance between a crank bearing or rod bearing is less than 2 thousandths on modern engines. A small amount of oil in that tiny space is all that keeps your engine from having metal on metal seizure. The BMW S65 and S85 engines are prime examples of what happens when the wrong tolerances are chosen. I can't think of another engine family where rod bearings are considered a maintenance item.

specialp 5y ago
I built an LSX (Aftermarket GM) iron block engine (V8 LS) for a CTS V. I had to get some very precise tools (Have to measure to 10,000ths) or they were useless for bearing clearances and verifying cylinder diameters. My cylinders were 4.155 bore, and the bearing clearances were around 1.8 thousandths. Forged pistons, rods and crank. I had cracked a cylinder/piston on the original LSA. I did not trust anyone to do the work so I did a lot of research and did it all myself. I appreciate someone asking because my friends and software dev co workers aren't interested :)
- tmh88j 5y ago
  >I had cracked a cylinder/piston on the original LSA. I did not trust anyone to do the work so I did a lot of research and did it all myself I love working on cars so I totally get wanting to do that, but why didn't you trust someone else to do the work? There are probably more reputable LS builders across the US than any other engine family.
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    It helps that they are abundant (in the hundreds of millions units produced), have been in use for decades (since the mid-50s), and are simple to work on (as evidence by the OP randomly learning to machine one). As cool as 2-atom thick plasma transfer wire arc cylinder liners are, that's not something which will ever be available to a layman.
    - mgarfias 5y ago
      I really doubt the OP did the machine work himself, those tools are not affordable for just using once or twice. Buying bore gages and mics however is totally doable. And no, the LS motors have been in use since '97. Including the gen1/2 small blocks doesn't count, there are no shared parts between them.
  - esaym 5y ago
    It sounds like he wanted some very precise work done. Quality in the blue collar trades has gone to nil in the last decade. And if you do find someone that is very detailed and "by the book" level of quality, you are going to pay 3X the normal labor rate. For instance, this is a performance transmission shop [0] that regularly takes apart "precision" rebuilt transmissions only to find they were not done right at all. [0] https://youtu.be/aI5iO2YSHMs https://youtu.be/aI5iO2YSHMs
    - tmh88j 5y ago
      LS engines are among the most common engines in custom built cars, and there are countless shops out there who specialize in them. No offense to him or you, but it's quite ridiculous to believe you can do a better job building an engine on your first try than shops like Texas Speed who have been doing it for decades with full blown R&D labs and regularly build 2000+ horsepower motors, all with highly skilled machinists and engineers using professional equipment that the average person would never be able to afford. Edit - For reference here's a video of the shop I'm referring to. They're far from a podunk operation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HgwF5dISmU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HgwF5dISmU
kirse 5y ago
Subaru EJ motors munch through rod bearings quite happily.
- samstave 5y ago
  What are the indicators that replacing them is neigh?
  - Prcmaker 5y ago
    In my experience with these, when I've heard the first indicator to do it, the damage is done. Standard regular maintenance hasn't identified the issue in advance. I'd be curious to see whether long term monitoring of particulates in oil can make an help though.
zeusk 5y ago
Any race or high power engine, especially those that rev quite high will need rebuild - not just in bottom end but often with piston rings and valves as well. You don't really hear about those other engines much because their buyers understand that a race engine needs more maintenance than any other road car. Also, not beating on the engine until oil has warmed up to temp will elongate the bearing lifespan quite a bit. I have a friend with E60 6mt S85 that has factory bearings at 110k mi and has perfect oil analysis results.
- tmh88j 5y ago
  The S65 and S85 are road car engines, not racecar engines. They're also hardly BMW's highest performing motors. Even Dinan built engines don't suffer from that problem.
  - zeusk 5y ago
    They're meant to be dual duty. There aren't any road car engines I'm aware of that use individual throttle bodies or 12+ compression without direct injection.
    - tmh88j 5y ago
      The S54 engine which came before the S65/85, was also high revving, had 11.5:1 compression ratio and didn't have any of the rod bearing issues. The 20v Toyota 4AGE also had them too with a high compression ratio.
      - jcoby 5y ago
        The S54 absolutely had rod bearing issues. There was a recall on the 2001-2003.5 M3s to replace them and BMW switched to 60w oil as part of the remediation. They’re still having issues to this day. The S54 is also notorious for VANOS issues and cam drive failures. I had to replace the solenoid pack on mine but elected to not upgrade the drive while I was in there.
      - zeusk 5y ago
Grazester 5y ago
I thought once you replaced the crappy OEM bearings you were all set on these engines. I guess it is not the case?

swiley 5y ago

I've always felt cars were like computers; most people (me included) pay a premium for something mediocre because they don't want to bother understanding it. My personal solution is to live near the metro and bike as much as possible.

jacobsenscott 5y ago
Mediocre in what way? Buy almost any new car from a well known brand today and it will run for 200,000+ miles. You almost need to deliberately buy a mediocre car. Biking and taking the metro is better for the environment, your health, and your budget though. If you are fortunate enough to have that option.

pram 5y ago

I think automatic transmissions are more impressive looking than engines when they're open. They resemble EV motors too!

benlivengood 5y ago
Automatic transmissions also have hydraulic logic gates in the valve body (implemented with check-balls and piston servos), even if they're also electronically controlled. Drag-racers will reprogram the valve body to change the shift order, have launch control, etc.
Ambroos 5y ago
VW group has a dual-clutch automatic transmission that includes an EV motor for their plug-in hybrids, the DQ400E. It looks pretty cool indeed!

kingsuper20 5y ago

>So one would think that when EVs reach the same scale they will be significantly cheaper than ICE vehicles. I expect that batteries are the only hangup, there's probably not that much magic left in an electric motor. Additional cost for regen brakes of course. I agree on the amazing cheapness of it all if you stick with the common stuff. That, along with the low cost of flat panel TVs is a miracle of the modern age.

piva00 5y ago
> there's probably not that much magic left in an electric motor. I believe this sentence has been said about many technologies in the past that definitely invalidated it. I'm more playing devil's advocate than trying to falsify you, likely for being burned sometimes reading or, worse, stating it, haha.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  There isn't much more efficiency to be gained in the electric motor world. Motors typically get 90% of theoretical efficiency, so any improvements there will be modest. Substantial improvements in other metrics might be had, but they probably won't massively impact EV's (weight and costs of the motor are both a small part of the total for a car)
londons_explore 5y ago
> Additional cost for regen brakes of course. Regen braking has no physical cost associated - it's pure software/firmware. The exact same hardware that is used to power the car forwards can be used for regen braking. It can be as simple as a single negative sign in the code to cause the phase to be 180 degrees out, current to flow backwards, torque to go the other way, and the battery to be charged instead of discharged. One day regen braking will take over hydraulic brakes, and another big cost/complexity of a car will be eliminated. The only reason that doesn't happen today is there are lots of laws and regulations requiring hydraulic brakes, and braking systems typically require more redundancy than power systems.
- 5y ago

mfer 5y ago

If people were willing to pay the higher cost for the same feature set, why would they well them for cheaper? Why not pocket the extra profit? I don't like this line of thinking but I'm sure it's going to or already is happening.

clairity 5y ago
competition, a bedrock element of fair markets, capitalism, and efficient economic allocation, something we seem to have collectively lost sight of.
admax88q 5y ago
... Because the whole nature of market competition? People will still choose the cheaper option if its available.
- ianai 5y ago
  I’m starting to think it may just be minimizing cost. Theoretically that just means “maximize profit”, but I suspect in practice it means a whole slew of bad behavior and design choices. I.e. Pay for the part that’s .0001 cent cheaper than another option, despite the cheaper part possibly being a fire hazard.

elihu 5y ago

The raw materials may continue to cost more for EVs. Motor windings are generally copper, and batteries contain lithium and (usually) cobalt and nickel. Permanent magnet motors sometimes contain rare earths. One could make an EV with aluminum motor windings and electrical cabling, no rare earth magnets, and lithium iron phosphate batteries. That would keep expensive materials to a minimum. EVs don't need a catalytic converter, so that's a big thing in their favor. I'm looking forward to mass manufacturing continuing to bring down EV component prices. I think we're a long ways from the point where material costs are the bulk of the expense.

the_cat_kittles 5y ago
cmon man. the total weight of pricey metals in a car is so low, there is no way its going to offset the cost of precision machining. tolerances < 1 thou and callouts for surface finish and perpendicularity are expensive!
- jeffreyrogers 5y ago
  I'm sure a motor is cheaper than an engine (less steps to make), but they still require precision manufacturing, and all the other parts aside from the motor (driveshaft, axles, brakes, etc.) are more or less the same. Plus, the cost of those other materials is going to increase if demand for EVs goes up.
  - the_cat_kittles 5y ago
    evs could drive lithium but i really doubt they would influence copper that much, since it is used so much already
    - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
      I think the more constraining commodities are things like rare earths[0] and other important metals like cobalt. [0]: I know they aren't that rare, but they aren't mined/processed in many places and it takes a long time to bring a new mine online.

kccqzy 5y ago

> One thing I gained an appreciation for was how CHEAP cars and engines are. There's probably nothing else with as precise machining that is as inexpensive. Not to denigrate the amount of engineering that went into car engines, but literally, what about chips? Devices that contain billions of transistors, arranged precisely on the order of nanometers. Yet they cost only hundreds of dollars.

specialp 5y ago
Yes you are referring to another insanely complex thing that is very cheap relative to making one of cost due to mass production. But it isn't machined metal :) I didn't say I don't appreciate electronics too.
akiselev 5y ago
They're apples and oranges. Chips are not machined, they're etched in batches. Their "tolerances", so to speak, are limited by the wavelengths of visible or UV light they use for creating the masks and exposing the photoresist that protects the wafer from hydrofluoric acid and other etchants. There's no mechanical force involved, except to spin wafers to apply coatings and move them between each stage of the process. Engine blocks, on the other hand, are CNC machined one at a time and the force of machining steel causes vibrations that move the cutting tools thousands of nanometers back and forth. Placing both in the same building, for example, would likely cripple the semiconductor fab. Having a machine shop in China make a one off would likely cost as much as a luxury car.

formerly_proven 5y ago

> I use inches here because in machine work thousandths of inches is the language du jour. Only in the USA ;)

alexvoda 5y ago
The rest of the world figured that using prefixes with a predefined universal multiplier is more practical. Therefore you can use the milifoot equal to a thousandth of a foot, or the kiloinch equal to one thousand inches, or the microyard equal to one millionth of a yard, maybe even the centifurlong equal to one hundredth of a furlong. We are quiet proud of our prefixes. Now if only we would decide on a single reference unit to which to apply the prefixes. Conversion from megainch to hectofurlong is rather inconvenient.

ryandrake 5y ago

Not only the tight measurements, but I've always been amazed at the precise timing of all the little moving parts, the valves all opening and closing at precise to-the-millisecond times so that each stroke happens, at 6000 RPM! So impressive. Especially with an interference engine, where getting that timing wrong means bent valves.

globular-toast 5y ago
Mmm.. not really. It's just a cam and a spring. Pretty easy to get that bit working by yourself. Variable valve timing and lift is much more impressive.

Animats 5y ago

I just built an engine for my car. One thing I gained an appreciation for was how CHEAP cars and engines are. There's probably nothing else with as precise machining that is as inexpensive. When cars started getting electronic engine controls, there was much internal grumbling about the cost. One Ford production guy, on hearing that the engine controller cost about $100, said "I can make the whole engine for 100 bucks."

slver 5y ago

How about your phone.

kokanator 5y ago

Anyone who has the inclination to build an engine, should. It is super rewarding not to mention you get to buy a bunch of really cool tools. I build a 350 Windsor from the block. The research and design decisions were one of the best parts of the project. Then to put it all together and realize the power was amazing.

Prcmaker 5y ago
Ford (Aus) 4.0 was a great first build for me. I'm now taking my time on a Toyota 4K 1300cc, learning a lot more, and taking the time to design new components for it. Can't recommend it highly enough, though not for everyone to be sure.

gtvwill 5y ago

> "I use inches here because in machine work thousandths of inches is the language du jour." Yeah not in Australia unless your machinist is >50 years old. Metric is more accurate/easier/less prone to mistakes. Metric is what we use.

specialp 5y ago
I'm not denying the metric system. Just in the USA it is thou period. and if the measurement is a consistent unit of whatever it works. Also GM (and Holden in oz) are inch based. So using metric will subject you to mistakes possibly. I agree though in science SI is the way to go
- gtvwill 5y ago
  Yeah I cut my teeth on Subaru engines (helped having a gf who was a subi then telsa mechanic walking me through it). Subi are all metric tho. My workshop is a mix of metric for new gear and imperial from my old mans days running a farm. We even have some stuff thats neither metric or US imperial, but is british witworth imperial...so different again and just enough to make a difference. Makes for some confusing repairs when your working with stuff that's had a mix of all 3 systems due to a long life of repairs.
s5300 5y ago
Still widely used and taught in the machine shops of highly reputable universities over here in the U.S. If you're under 40 and can't use metric and imperial jargon without a second thought in the shop here that's a different problem. I personally enjoy doing machine shop-esque metal fabrication in metric and woodshop type things in imperial, but all machine shop instructors I've met through several good stem uni's that look even slightly middle aged love to talk in thou of inch, some to the point of getting quite physically frustrated when asked where the metric drill index/reamer set are in otherwise highly stocked shops... Also, I've noticed and heard the same from others in surrounding states - Fluid Dynamics professors love to include absolutely unecessary boatloads of strange units and conversions in coursework/exams to apparently "prepare us for the shitshow that is industry"
5y ago

CRConrad 5y ago

> I use inches here because in machine work thousandths of inches is the language du jour. I'll make a wild guess: In the USA. EDIT: Heh, sorry... See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26991690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26991690 . This time I really thought I'd checked, but there was lots of catalyst talk in between.