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San Francisco’s tech fiefdom is dying
- justinzollars 5y agoIs anyone on HN thinking of leaving San Francisco? If so where are you headed?
- Semiapies 5y agoA more interesting question than this article. Maybe you should make it an Ask HN.
- baby 5y agoI left for 6 months and now returning because SO is scared that the job market isn’t as good elsewhere. (Eventhough her current contract is remote and my sf job became remote too)
- erik_seaberg 5y agoI’m guessing remote work during the pandemic (and unplanned loss of childcare and coworking space) has not been successful enough to convince management to make it permanent. But hey, some of us get to ride the Bay Area tech gravy train for a little while longer.
- troutwine 5y agoMy wife and I live in the East Bay but we're probably here for the long-haul. But, it's tough to stay. Most of our friends are not software people and it's challenging for folks to find good living situations here, so a lot of our friendships have become increasingly long distance. There's also this nagging sense I've got that kids raised here might end up being priced out of their home, unless they also happen to wind up in a high-paying career. Which, that's not bad if you want it necessarily but to grow up _knowing_ you have to end up in a high-income bracket or else you'll really struggle does weird things to people. Still, it is very pretty here.
- proc0 5y agoLocals were hating on "techies". I still remember signs on the street from people blaming everything on the tech boom. Careful what you wish for.
- lettergram 5y agoIt’s not just that... the state has trouble keeping power on. Taxes are high, homeless are everywhere. How are the taxes i pay helping my family? As a person in tech, I can work remotely from anywhere. Why would I want to move back to SF.
- glitchc 5y ago> Why would I want to move back to SF. Company may ask you to.
- yokaze 5y agoWhat impressed me when visiting the area, was the density of IT companies and startups. When going out, you could easily meet people working for those, and get a foot in the door, as you may have made already a positive initial impression in a casual environment. Remotely, you will compete with a much larger pool of people.
- the_local_host 5y ago> When going out, you could easily meet people working for those It's not just that, you actually can't avoid them. If you write software and are walking someplace in a commercial part of San Francisco, basically every conversation you overhear is one you could immediately join in on. Breaking up the clump is probably healthy for everyone involved.
- rcpt 5y agoThe taxes you pay are going into your landlords pockets. Prop 13 is over $30B per year -- that's 4x the NSF and 7B more than NASA. California could have it's own NASA!
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- exogeny 5y agoThere are a LOT of misspellings in that article, enough for me to have a really difficult time taking it seriously.
- nondeveloper 5y agoYes, I got stuck on "Powell" High School. For non-locals, that's Lowell.
- wsinks 5y agoOr how about the "mapping tech xodus" map that has no sources except in the image it credits ... themselves. What an interesting website... "Resources & Editorial Information We’re incredibly selective with where we draw our information in developing stories and when to make assertive points while providing perspective. The contents on this site are for informational purposes only and do not constitute financial, accounting, or legal advice, and in no way is promoting or an endorsing any investment and business decisions or strategies. By using this site, you agree that Brookfield Brief is without fault for any financial loss, or otherwise, that could occur from actions taken due to information published by Brookfield Brief. If we provide perspective regarding market movements, that perspective is grounded by data and heuristics from the following sources or reflects the perspective of subject matter experts. Our news sources include but are not limited to: The Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, TheFinancial Times, Barron’s, Reuters, CNBC, PitchBook, New York Times, Axios, Vox-ReCode,TechCrunch, Hacker News, The Information, Vice News, Crunchbase News,Associated Press, McKinsey Insights, GS Insights, JPM Insights, A16Z, HBR, IBR,MIT Sloan, and MIT Technology Review." So to be objective, they just ingest a lot of other subjective news and do their own research but then don't post their own research? I'm a bit confused.
- markbnj 5y agoThere will always be a cohort which values living in the metropolis as opposed to just working for a company that has an address there, but clearly the growth in remote work is allowing workers in all sorts of industries to spread out somewhat and live where they would like to live. I can't help but think this will be a huge boon for smaller communities.
- dominotw 5y agoAnyone know if FB allows managers to work remotely?
- lbrandy 5y agoif the team is remote, yes
- mixmastamyk 5y agoLooks like the piece forgot Los Angeles. There's a huge technical pool down here working at the likes of Disney, Hulu, Space X, to JPL. Has its homeless and high tax issues as well, but at least there is lots of room and nimby's have lost their tight grip preventing development.
- cigaser 5y agoCrime and housing cost are not new. Most people fleeing California do that over tax uncertainty and general business unfriendliness. Stuff like retroactive income tax increase or exit tax.
- justinzollars 5y agoI disagree. Taxes haven't materially changed in California in a decade. People are leaving because they aren't happy here. Look around, you don't see a lot of smiling faces.
- 762236 5y agoTrump and the Republicans raised my California state taxes a lot.
- compiler-guy 5y agoThe $10,000-deduction limit on State and Local Taxes (SALT) materially changed the calculation for highly compensated tech workers. It effectively raised federal taxes for people living in high-tax states, of which California is way up there.
- justinzollars 5y agoThat's a good point, but that could change. Its being negotiated right now.
- cigaser 5y agoPeople could leave SF and stay somewhere on coast. California has beautiful and diverse countryside. I wrote "uncertainty" because things may change very soon.
- baby 5y agoFirst time I hear that and it sounds more like wishful thinking. Most people I know who either are still here or left would be willing to pay more in taxes to get universal healthcare, less homeless, etc.
- jph 5y agoI believe SF will thrive in the next wave. SF has decades of progressive exploration to continue, from the 1960's music scene, through hippies and psychonauts and LGBTQ+ culture, to the rise of open source and software, SF keeps thriving on new kinds of ideas. Then mix in the California outdoors, the ongoing health and wellness movements, and top research labs at Berkeley and Stanford. My hope is we'll start seeing the next wave soon-- I'm seeing a lot of potential SFBA groundwork relating to CRISPR and genetics, neural links with AR+AI, and biopharma coupled with human potential advancements.
- wsinks 5y agoI've also been thinking that the next wave is IT+biology, especially with the rich history of the two in this area. I hope you're right!
- Google234 5y agoI think the next wave of companies will be smart and avoid SF. SF is completely dysfunctional and crime ridden. Housing is brutally expensive too.
- xvedejas 5y agoThese problems are not in spite of SF's success, they are largely due to SF's success. Anywhere else in the US which experiences the same level of success would end up having to deal with mostly the same problems. Henry George predicted this 142 years ago. > If there is less deep poverty in San Francisco than in New York, is it not because San Francisco is yet behind new York in all that both cities are striving for? When San Francisco reaches the point where New York now is, who can doubt that there will also be ragged and barefooted children on her streets? In our current system, poverty advances alongside progress. Landlords are the only beneficiaries in a system without Land Value Tax, everyone else is at best doomed to face the trade-offs of going to less productive cities.
- rcpt 5y agoAs long Prop 13 exists SF will stagnate and crumble.
- cheriot 5y agoThe article highlights some silver linings, but the net effect is profoundly negative. The refusal of 3 American cities to grow has made us all substantially poorer (New York, San Jose, and San Francisco): https://www.econlib.org/a-correction-on-housing-regulation/ https://www.econlib.org/a-correction-on-housing-regulation/ > revitalize the American heartland while moving America toward a greener, high-tech future Every time someone moves from the suburbs to a transit connected apartment building in SF their carbon emissions are cut in half.
- rcpt 5y agoMorettis work in this area is so great. I know Obama's already recommending his book but still the research needs more attention. Our housing stupidity could easily wreck our national economy
- Eric_WVGG 5y agoHow is NYC refusing to grow? This city has been exploding in every direction for the ten years I've been here. > Every time someone moves from the suburbs to a transit connected apartment building in SF their carbon emissions are cut in half. I kind of agree, but if these people are truly shifting to remote work, commutes won't be quite as big a deal. (but there are of course a laundry list of other reasons why suburbs are unsustainable)
- cheriot 5y agoI'm less familiar with NYC land use than the other two. However if commute times and rents* are both rising that's a sign there's a problem. Transit and housing need to keep up with the growth in offices. * specifically the share of income spent on rent
- twalla 5y agoIt appears “good for America” is shorthand for “good for anyone leaving SF or already owning property in one of the cities experiencing an influx of new tech employees”
- 29athrowaway 5y agoAs a tourist or a person new to the city, you can have a good time in San Francisco. There are a lot of things to do. Living in SF is a different thing. The traffic really sucks and the public transportation is inadequate. During major conferences the city gets completely saturated with people and transportation sucks even more. Commuting from outside the city is a via crucis that will destroy your spirit. Public works take fucking forever to complete, blocking streets for years. Air quality is nice, except during wildfire season. You will need to seal your windows, doors, AC, buy air filters and masks. It sucks. The cost of living is fucking absurd. The will keep raising your rent every goddamn year. The homelessness situation is pretty bad, and since the city has not installed public bathrooms, they have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars removing poop from the streets. And needles. Fucking used needles everywhere.
- lhorie 5y agoI feel like this analysis is missing the forest for the trees a little bit. The main premise is that exodus of tech brain to smaller hubs like Austin, Denver and Miami will help them grow. But if the assessment of the downsides to SF is merely that "cities don't die, they languish", that ignores the dynamic aspect of an economy, namely that it is the centralization aspect that made places like SF and NY the powerhouses in their respective flagship industries in the first place. I saw a video recently about the Ogallala Aquifer (a large body of water that feeds the agricultural belt in central US). It argued that because state lines were drawn in a nearly arbitrary fashion, states are incentivized to compete against each other to develop/maintain their agricultural industries, even if that means draining the water unsustainably. It argues that a hypothetical megastate whose area encompasses the entirety of the aquifer would see that it's in its own interest to manage the aquifer efficiently and sustainably, rather than fight against neighbouring states in a tragedy of the commons. `s/water/VC money + talent/` and I think you can see where we're going with this. Could the next Apple be born in Denver? Could the next Google be born in Miami? You could arguably look at Toronto, Canada as an example of what sort of level of innovation one could reasonably expect from a local growing hub. But if hypothetically, the SF tech scene were to actually die (or be irreparably crippled by the tech exodus), I'd think the US as a whole would lose a major economic/technological edge, especially compared to places like China. Is that "good for the US"? Perhaps so for the folks that can ride the growth in the local hubs. Perhaps their locals will also come to loathe techies. But alas, perhaps it won't be so good after all, if it means the existing tech giants will never again see worthy competition/disruption, and if it means that the US starts seeing technological advances originating from other countries while no longer able to sprout them at the scale that today's tech giants have been able to in the past.
- ijustwanttovote 5y agoI don't think so, you still have some of the top schools in the nation around the Bay Area. Big tech, startups, and opportunities will still be here.
- rcpt 5y agoFlag killed. Why?