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> we own Taiwan and we will depose their government by force if necessary, eventually. Until very recently this was Taiwan's stance on China. What exactly wou

by xtian 5y ago

> we own Taiwan and we will depose their government by force if necessary, eventually. Until very recently this was Taiwan's stance on China. What exactly would China gain from invading Taiwan? My understanding is that their main goal is preventing the expansion of US military presence and bases in the region, which Taiwan's pro-independence party supports. Response to your edit: China invading Taiwan would not be an annexation according to international law. A small minority of nations recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, and historically it is not a sovereign nation. Taiwan represents the losing side of a Chinese civil war that recently decided it wants to be a sovereign nation as its hopes of retaking the mainland have evaporated.

chitowneats 5y ago
A propaganda coup, first of all. They have been promising their increasingly nationalistic populace this prize for nearly a century. Second: They eliminate a very important forward operating base for any future containment of China by Five Eyes & Co. Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. The rationale for invasion is clear. Particularly if they have calculated they can't or won't be stopped. I know more than a few mainlanders and they all strongly believe that Taiwan and China will be "reunified" within their lifetime. Edit: Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? Yes, they are the "losing side" of a civil war from almost a century ago. That's completely irrelevant given how long they have had sovereignty at this point. That they are not more widely recognized in the international community is a tragedy. The U.S. is correct to continue to support their independence.
- xtian 5y ago
  > Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. Ah yes, the filthy lucre of siphoning an economy with 4% of their own GDP.
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    4% is 4%. They are paying the expenditures to maintain their military. Why would they not be looking for a return on their investment? It's strange we're even arguing about this given that their official position is that they will invade in due time if Taiwan does not unconditionally surrender. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-taiwan-invasion-military-exercise/2020/10/12/291f5d86-0c58-11eb-b404-8d1e675ec701_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-taiw... "In its annual work report this year, the Chinese government removed the word "peaceful" from long-standing references to "reunification" with Taiwan."
    - xtian 5y ago
      Their official position is that they will invade if any of a few specific things occur. And China's military spending is less than 4% of their GDP last I checked. That seems pretty good to me given all the geopolitical aggression they're receiving from the country that makes up 38% of global military spending.
      - chitowneats 5y ago
        The U.S. guaranteeing the independence of a free democracy is not "geopolitical aggression". Claiming sovereignty over land you have not controlled for an entire human lifetime quite certainly is. I'll end my participation in this discussion with a quote from the Taiwanese: "We fill fight a war if we need to fight a war, and if we need to defend ourselves to the very last day, then we will defend ourselves to the very last day" https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-warns-fight-to-end-conflict-with-china-2021-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-warns-fight-to-end-co...
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        >The U.S. guaranteeing the independence of a free democracy is not "geopolitical aggression". So it was geopolitical aggression for the 40+ years Taiwan couldn't even pretend to be a free democracy? I don't understand how the internal government can be the decider over whether it's aggressive.
- petre 5y ago
  > Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? It would probably help if Taiwan had nuclear weapons. China wouldn't risk an invasion. That or maybe I don't know enough about Asia.
- f6v 5y ago
  > Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. Right, who's going to buy from China-occupied Taiwan? In this scenario, there's going to be a massive disruption of Taiwanese economy. By the time it's over, someone else will outcompete them. It's not 17th century, capturing land doesn't guarantee any advantages. > Edit: Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? I get you. Crimeans don't want to be a part of Ukraine either, yet the "international community" pretends they do. Life isn't fair, and Taiwanese not wanting something isn't going to change anything.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    > Crimeans don't want to be a part of Ukraine either, yet the "international community" pretends they do. I don't think the international community pretends any such thing. It just doesn't oppose it strongly enough to start a shooting war with Russia.
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    > Right, who's going to buy from China-occupied Taiwan? We've been buying from China-occupied China, including Xinjiang. Color me skeptical that international trade with China will fundamentally change in response to an invasion, ahem, "reunification". Taiwan's largest trading partner right now is mainland China. That will only accelerate with annexation and can offset export losses elsewhere. > I get you. Crimeans don't want to be a part of Ukraine either, yet the "international community" pretends they do. The U.S. is also correct to oppose the annexation of Crimea and further destabilization of the Donbass.
    - f6v 5y ago
      It's none of their business, tbh.
- yeetman21 5y ago
  >Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? Who cares what they want? The confederacy succeeded from the Union and the Union invaded it.
8note 5y ago
Access to the ocean. Right now, America owns China's coast, with the aim of making sure China has to get America's permission to get to ocean shipping routes. A PRC Taiwan gives china a free access point to the Pacific.

by xtian 5y ago

chitowneats 5y ago

A propaganda coup, first of all. They have been promising their increasingly nationalistic populace this prize for nearly a century. Second: They eliminate a very important forward operating base for any future containment of China by Five Eyes & Co. Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. The rationale for invasion is clear. Particularly if they have calculated they can't or won't be stopped. I know more than a few mainlanders and they all strongly believe that Taiwan and China will be "reunified" within their lifetime. Edit: Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? Yes, they are the "losing side" of a civil war from almost a century ago. That's completely irrelevant given how long they have had sovereignty at this point. That they are not more widely recognized in the international community is a tragedy. The U.S. is correct to continue to support their independence.

xtian 5y ago
> Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. Ah yes, the filthy lucre of siphoning an economy with 4% of their own GDP.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  4% is 4%. They are paying the expenditures to maintain their military. Why would they not be looking for a return on their investment? It's strange we're even arguing about this given that their official position is that they will invade in due time if Taiwan does not unconditionally surrender. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-taiwan-invasion-military-exercise/2020/10/12/291f5d86-0c58-11eb-b404-8d1e675ec701_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-taiw... "In its annual work report this year, the Chinese government removed the word "peaceful" from long-standing references to "reunification" with Taiwan."
  - xtian 5y ago
    Their official position is that they will invade if any of a few specific things occur. And China's military spending is less than 4% of their GDP last I checked. That seems pretty good to me given all the geopolitical aggression they're receiving from the country that makes up 38% of global military spending.
    - chitowneats 5y ago
      The U.S. guaranteeing the independence of a free democracy is not "geopolitical aggression". Claiming sovereignty over land you have not controlled for an entire human lifetime quite certainly is. I'll end my participation in this discussion with a quote from the Taiwanese: "We fill fight a war if we need to fight a war, and if we need to defend ourselves to the very last day, then we will defend ourselves to the very last day" https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-warns-fight-to-end-conflict-with-china-2021-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-warns-fight-to-end-co...
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        >The U.S. guaranteeing the independence of a free democracy is not "geopolitical aggression". So it was geopolitical aggression for the 40+ years Taiwan couldn't even pretend to be a free democracy? I don't understand how the internal government can be the decider over whether it's aggressive.
petre 5y ago
> Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? It would probably help if Taiwan had nuclear weapons. China wouldn't risk an invasion. That or maybe I don't know enough about Asia.
f6v 5y ago
> Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. Right, who's going to buy from China-occupied Taiwan? In this scenario, there's going to be a massive disruption of Taiwanese economy. By the time it's over, someone else will outcompete them. It's not 17th century, capturing land doesn't guarantee any advantages. > Edit: Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? I get you. Crimeans don't want to be a part of Ukraine either, yet the "international community" pretends they do. Life isn't fair, and Taiwanese not wanting something isn't going to change anything.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  > Crimeans don't want to be a part of Ukraine either, yet the "international community" pretends they do. I don't think the international community pretends any such thing. It just doesn't oppose it strongly enough to start a shooting war with Russia.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  > Right, who's going to buy from China-occupied Taiwan? We've been buying from China-occupied China, including Xinjiang. Color me skeptical that international trade with China will fundamentally change in response to an invasion, ahem, "reunification". Taiwan's largest trading partner right now is mainland China. That will only accelerate with annexation and can offset export losses elsewhere. > I get you. Crimeans don't want to be a part of Ukraine either, yet the "international community" pretends they do. The U.S. is also correct to oppose the annexation of Crimea and further destabilization of the Donbass.
  - f6v 5y ago
    It's none of their business, tbh.
yeetman21 5y ago
>Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? Who cares what they want? The confederacy succeeded from the Union and the Union invaded it.

8note 5y ago

Access to the ocean. Right now, America owns China's coast, with the aim of making sure China has to get America's permission to get to ocean shipping routes. A PRC Taiwan gives china a free access point to the Pacific.