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> I think it is pretty clear in most cases that 30% is well above the value Apple is actually delivering with their App Store. You’re entitled to your opinion.

> I think it is pretty clear in most cases that 30% is well above the value Apple is actually delivering with their App Store. You’re entitled to your opinion. And maybe it is not valuable to you. But I doubt you even know the costs to run the service so my opinion is that you are speaking from a place of ignorance. Part of the value of the service is that you don’t have to go and build it yourself. I’m going to bet that you’d die before you built it. How valuable is your life? > Shit-tier apps get thru every day, and great apps get knocked for arbitrary reasons. My opinion is this will get much worse. Just because you are a cute tinkerer who just wants to publish the app you made for your grandma doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there who can’t wait to get their malware onto the platform that carries the most wealthy consumers.

colinmhayes 5y ago
The app store makes tens of billions of dollars a year. You can't argue it delivers anywhere close to that amount of value.
- sixstringtheory 5y ago
  > You can't argue it delivers anywhere close to that amount of value. Why not?
fastball 5y ago
Haha what are you talking about? Building an app store is... not hard. It's some detail pages and file transfer. That's it. I would definitely not rather die than build one. I actually laughed out loud when I read your comment, because I have in fact already worked on App Stores – I contributed to some of the jailbreak app stores (and ran my own repos) when I was a teenager. So yes, I think I have a pretty good handle on the costs (and they've only come down since then). For your own edification on costs, just look at AWS prices to see how much it costs to store and transfer a file on S3 (fractions of fractions of pennies) – that type of activity is the main expense. This is not my opinion, it is... how much this kind of thing costs. You seem to think that is unknowable or something to anyone that is not Apple, but that's obviously not the case. Hell, I'd almost be willing to bet that the existing developer account fees ($99pa for individual, $299pa for biz) could cover server costs for the iOS App Store (with a 0% cut). The other way we know that it is not actually that expensive to operate is because otherwise Apple would allow other app stores and not be monopolistic about the whole thing. But they know that their model (taking 30% of revenue) would not be competitive in a free market, so they don't allow a free market. > Malware Please re-read my comment, especially the part about sandboxing and 3rd-party app stores. The suggestion is not that anyone can put anything in Apple's app store, it is that people should be able to have 3rd party app stores on their phone, which they can enable/install at their own risk. And those other app stores can have their own rules, e.g. if nobody else did I would start one where we charge cost+, as outlined above with S3 costs. E.g. if it costs me $1000 to deliver your apps + updates to your users every month, I charge you cost + 30%, or $1300 (or w/e). Spotify et al would of course prefer to use my app store, because that is much cheaper than having to pay 30/15% of revenue to Apple for every sub.
- sixstringtheory 5y ago
  > I contributed to some of the jailbreak app stores You didn't build or work on an app store. You played with one. Much easier to modify something that already exists than to create something where there once was nothing. > just look at AWS prices to see how much it costs to store and transfer a file on S3 Look, if it's so cheap and easy to do, why is everyone so hell bent on getting onto Apple's? They should just do it themselves! The answer is that it's not that simple. > Please re-read my comment, especially the part about sandboxing and 3rd-party app stores I reread it. You did not say anything about sandboxing _3rd-party app stores_. Thanks for wasting my time with that! You said "apps are pretty well sandboxed" and we've seen how well that's done to protect users' privacy. App Tracking and Transparency was created for a reason. You really need to cool it with the condescension ("Haha what are you talking about?", "I actually laughed out loud when I read your comment"); it adds nothing to your arguments, except the veneer of juvenility.
  - fastball 5y ago
    > You really need to cool it with the condescension > But I doubt you even know the costs to run the service so my opinion is that you are speaking from a place of ignorance. > You didn't build or work on an app store. You played with one. Much easier to modify something that already exists than to create something where there once was nothing. That's some impressive cognitive dissonance ya got there, you might want to try looking in a mirror. You have no idea how much involvement I had. Please stop arguing from a place of complete and total ignorance. > Look, if it's so cheap and easy to do, why is everyone so hell bent on getting onto Apple's? They should just do it themselves! Surely you can't be serious... this is literally the topic at hand. Apple won't let anyone do it themselves. That is why they don't do it themselves. People absolutely would do it themselves if Apple wasn't behaving anti-competitively. I'm glad you agree that Apple should open up iOS to 3rd-party app stores so that they can live or die on their own merits, rather than being prevented from existing in the first place, based on dubious claims of protecting users. Though again, it is worth noting that people (yours truly included) actually have done it themselves, through jailbreaking. And that many jailbreak apps have done quite well financially, handling the distribution themselves. This is success in spite of Apple, as requiring users to jailbreak before they use your App Store is in fact a pretty high bar and does in fact make your system less secure. > You did not say anything about sandboxing _3rd-party app stores_... App Tracking and Transparency was created for a reason. Um, yes. That is exactly my point – the apps themselves are sandboxed and permissioned, at an OS level, so Apple's oversight (in the App Store) is a lot less useful than it once was (whether it ever was particularly valuable is not a given). If an app wants access to your location, the user has to explicitly allow it to have that permission. It doesn't matter what App Store the app is being distributed on, that sandboxing is there regardless. Also, isn't it a bit strange that Apple added such a feature in the first place? You'd think, since they were already gatekeeping apps that can be installed on your device, there would be no need, because Apple would catch apps that asked for permissions they didn't need, hmmm... just kidding, obviously this is because different users have different needs and Apple can't prescribe the same thing for everyone. Which is exactly why Apple should open up iOS to other app stores, and in order to keep iOS users secure they should focus on more things like App Tracking and Transparency, not on monopolizing app stores.
majani 5y ago
The overwhelming majority of apps in the app store could actually just be turned into websites, so the cost of doing it on your own isn't that high
noptd 5y ago
> My opinion is this will get much worse. I'd argue that it will get much worse specifically because of the false sense of security Apple provides to users through the AppStore. https://9to5mac.com/2021/02/11/app-store-scam-apps-how-to-spot/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/02/11/app-store-scam-apps-how-to-sp...

colinmhayes 5y ago

The app store makes tens of billions of dollars a year. You can't argue it delivers anywhere close to that amount of value.

sixstringtheory 5y ago
> You can't argue it delivers anywhere close to that amount of value. Why not?

fastball 5y ago

Haha what are you talking about? Building an app store is... not hard. It's some detail pages and file transfer. That's it. I would definitely not rather die than build one. I actually laughed out loud when I read your comment, because I have in fact already worked on App Stores – I contributed to some of the jailbreak app stores (and ran my own repos) when I was a teenager. So yes, I think I have a pretty good handle on the costs (and they've only come down since then). For your own edification on costs, just look at AWS prices to see how much it costs to store and transfer a file on S3 (fractions of fractions of pennies) – that type of activity is the main expense. This is not my opinion, it is... how much this kind of thing costs. You seem to think that is unknowable or something to anyone that is not Apple, but that's obviously not the case. Hell, I'd almost be willing to bet that the existing developer account fees ($99pa for individual, $299pa for biz) could cover server costs for the iOS App Store (with a 0% cut). The other way we know that it is not actually that expensive to operate is because otherwise Apple would allow other app stores and not be monopolistic about the whole thing. But they know that their model (taking 30% of revenue) would not be competitive in a free market, so they don't allow a free market. > Malware Please re-read my comment, especially the part about sandboxing and 3rd-party app stores. The suggestion is not that anyone can put anything in Apple's app store, it is that people should be able to have 3rd party app stores on their phone, which they can enable/install at their own risk. And those other app stores can have their own rules, e.g. if nobody else did I would start one where we charge cost+, as outlined above with S3 costs. E.g. if it costs me $1000 to deliver your apps + updates to your users every month, I charge you cost + 30%, or $1300 (or w/e). Spotify et al would of course prefer to use my app store, because that is much cheaper than having to pay 30/15% of revenue to Apple for every sub.

sixstringtheory 5y ago
> I contributed to some of the jailbreak app stores You didn't build or work on an app store. You played with one. Much easier to modify something that already exists than to create something where there once was nothing. > just look at AWS prices to see how much it costs to store and transfer a file on S3 Look, if it's so cheap and easy to do, why is everyone so hell bent on getting onto Apple's? They should just do it themselves! The answer is that it's not that simple. > Please re-read my comment, especially the part about sandboxing and 3rd-party app stores I reread it. You did not say anything about sandboxing _3rd-party app stores_. Thanks for wasting my time with that! You said "apps are pretty well sandboxed" and we've seen how well that's done to protect users' privacy. App Tracking and Transparency was created for a reason. You really need to cool it with the condescension ("Haha what are you talking about?", "I actually laughed out loud when I read your comment"); it adds nothing to your arguments, except the veneer of juvenility.
- fastball 5y ago
  > You really need to cool it with the condescension > But I doubt you even know the costs to run the service so my opinion is that you are speaking from a place of ignorance. > You didn't build or work on an app store. You played with one. Much easier to modify something that already exists than to create something where there once was nothing. That's some impressive cognitive dissonance ya got there, you might want to try looking in a mirror. You have no idea how much involvement I had. Please stop arguing from a place of complete and total ignorance. > Look, if it's so cheap and easy to do, why is everyone so hell bent on getting onto Apple's? They should just do it themselves! Surely you can't be serious... this is literally the topic at hand. Apple won't let anyone do it themselves. That is why they don't do it themselves. People absolutely would do it themselves if Apple wasn't behaving anti-competitively. I'm glad you agree that Apple should open up iOS to 3rd-party app stores so that they can live or die on their own merits, rather than being prevented from existing in the first place, based on dubious claims of protecting users. Though again, it is worth noting that people (yours truly included) actually have done it themselves, through jailbreaking. And that many jailbreak apps have done quite well financially, handling the distribution themselves. This is success in spite of Apple, as requiring users to jailbreak before they use your App Store is in fact a pretty high bar and does in fact make your system less secure. > You did not say anything about sandboxing _3rd-party app stores_... App Tracking and Transparency was created for a reason. Um, yes. That is exactly my point – the apps themselves are sandboxed and permissioned, at an OS level, so Apple's oversight (in the App Store) is a lot less useful than it once was (whether it ever was particularly valuable is not a given). If an app wants access to your location, the user has to explicitly allow it to have that permission. It doesn't matter what App Store the app is being distributed on, that sandboxing is there regardless. Also, isn't it a bit strange that Apple added such a feature in the first place? You'd think, since they were already gatekeeping apps that can be installed on your device, there would be no need, because Apple would catch apps that asked for permissions they didn't need, hmmm... just kidding, obviously this is because different users have different needs and Apple can't prescribe the same thing for everyone. Which is exactly why Apple should open up iOS to other app stores, and in order to keep iOS users secure they should focus on more things like App Tracking and Transparency, not on monopolizing app stores.

majani 5y ago

The overwhelming majority of apps in the app store could actually just be turned into websites, so the cost of doing it on your own isn't that high

noptd 5y ago

> My opinion is this will get much worse. I'd argue that it will get much worse specifically because of the false sense of security Apple provides to users through the AppStore. https://9to5mac.com/2021/02/11/app-store-scam-apps-how-to-spot/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/02/11/app-store-scam-apps-how-to-sp...