6 ms·

That article is vague even by the standards of Western reporting about China. This Reuters article about the same event is more specific: https://www.reuters.co

by xtian 5y ago

That article is vague even by the standards of Western reporting about China. This Reuters article about the same event is more specific: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiwan-defence-idUSKBN2BU0HJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiwan-defence-idUSKBN2BU... It says Chinese fighters flew inside Taiwan's air defense identification zone. Here's a map which shows Taiwan's ADIZ: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/JADIZ_and_CADIZ_and_KADIZ_in_East_China_Sea.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/JADIZ_an... You can make your own judgement as to whether that action constitutes an escalation of threat. As far as I'm aware, China's stance on what actions would trigger a military response regarding Taiwan has not changed in decades.

chitowneats 5y ago
That stance being: we own Taiwan and we will depose their government by force if necessary, eventually. China senses this moment as one of profound weakness for the West. What makes you think they aren't preparing to strike while the iron is hot? Top brass in the U.S. military is saying an invasion is likely within the decade: https://www.newsweek.com/top-commander-fears-taiwan-could-invaded-within-6-years-after-china-sends-us-warning-1574964 https://www.newsweek.com/top-commander-fears-taiwan-could-in... Edit: I fail to see how China invading Taiwan could be considered a "military response", rather than a blatantly illegal land grab according to international law. Edit 2: The international law in question is the one forbidding annexation: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/07/israelopt-10-things-you-need-to-know-about-annexation/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/07/israelopt-10-...
- xtian 5y ago
  > we own Taiwan and we will depose their government by force if necessary, eventually. Until very recently this was Taiwan's stance on China. What exactly would China gain from invading Taiwan? My understanding is that their main goal is preventing the expansion of US military presence and bases in the region, which Taiwan's pro-independence party supports. Response to your edit: China invading Taiwan would not be an annexation according to international law. A small minority of nations recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, and historically it is not a sovereign nation. Taiwan represents the losing side of a Chinese civil war that recently decided it wants to be a sovereign nation as its hopes of retaking the mainland have evaporated.
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    A propaganda coup, first of all. They have been promising their increasingly nationalistic populace this prize for nearly a century. Second: They eliminate a very important forward operating base for any future containment of China by Five Eyes & Co. Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. The rationale for invasion is clear. Particularly if they have calculated they can't or won't be stopped. I know more than a few mainlanders and they all strongly believe that Taiwan and China will be "reunified" within their lifetime. Edit: Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? Yes, they are the "losing side" of a civil war from almost a century ago. That's completely irrelevant given how long they have had sovereignty at this point. That they are not more widely recognized in the international community is a tragedy. The U.S. is correct to continue to support their independence.
    - xtian 5y ago
      > Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. Ah yes, the filthy lucre of siphoning an economy with 4% of their own GDP.
      - chitowneats 5y ago
        4% is 4%. They are paying the expenditures to maintain their military. Why would they not be looking for a return on their investment? It's strange we're even arguing about this given that their official position is that they will invade in due time if Taiwan does not unconditionally surrender. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-taiwan-invasion-military-exercise/2020/10/12/291f5d86-0c58-11eb-b404-8d1e675ec701_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-taiw... "In its annual work report this year, the Chinese government removed the word "peaceful" from long-standing references to "reunification" with Taiwan."
        xtian 5y ago
- Leary 5y ago
  Which international law would China be violating by invading Taiwan?
  - randomopining 5y ago
    Taiwan fits all criteria under international law for a country. Plus CCP would kill hundreds of thousands or millions during a forceful invasion of Taiwan. Laws always have loopholes. It's clear that the CCP would be doing something evil by attacking a peaceful island nation. They want control.
    - f6v 5y ago
      > Plus CCP would kill hundreds of thousands or millions during a forceful invasion of Taiwan. > They want control. Does not add up. Who're they going to control if they kill millions? I mean, why do they even have to start a military offensive when they can eventually outcompete Taiwan? Just think how many top-rated universities China has.
      - theandrewbailey 5y ago
        > Does not add up. Who're they going to control if they kill millions? Their citizens on the mainland. The CCP believes that if they don't look good, their days are numbered and revolution will be inevitable.
        xtian 5y ago
        A survey conducted by the Harvard Kennedy School found that satisfaction with the central government in China rose from 86.1% in 2003 to 93.1% in 2016: https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resilience-surveying-chinese-public-opinion-through-time https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resil... Is the US government's abysmal approval rating by comparison a sign of our free thinking and freedom, or do you think we'll have a revolution here soon?
        5y ago
- dheera 5y ago
  In practice, international law only applies to small countries with small militaries.
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    Correct
  - rendang 5y ago
    Sometimes, not even them.
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"The international law" The law is only as good as there is an entity capable and willing to impartially enforce it. Meanwhile as it stands now any reasonably capable country can show big fat middle finger to that concept which makes it but a mockery.
  - f6v 5y ago
    Nuclear weapons + huge economy = I do whatever I want.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- f6v 5y ago
  > Top brass in the U.S. military is saying an invasion is likely within the decade So you're saying if China/Russia/Iran did not have any plans whatsoever, the US generals would just say "Alrighty, you can now defund us!". Those guys will cry wolf any day to get those sweet $billions.
throwaway5752 5y ago
I agree with you - it's an awful article, it was just the first one I found searching for the quote I was looking for. And you are right, more in the last four years Western and specifically in the US, coverage of China have been dubious, particularly some media entities. But I don't think the Strait of Taiwan tensions and the recent South China Sea escalations are anything that I need to find an article to document, though. If China can drastically weaken the semi industry in Taiwan by hiring away their top talent to sit around and do nothing, it would be a stunningly inexpensive way to help achieve this long term strategic objective. They would be foolish not to try, and it's understandable and correct Taiwan would see it in this light.

by xtian 5y ago

chitowneats 5y ago

That stance being: we own Taiwan and we will depose their government by force if necessary, eventually. China senses this moment as one of profound weakness for the West. What makes you think they aren't preparing to strike while the iron is hot? Top brass in the U.S. military is saying an invasion is likely within the decade: https://www.newsweek.com/top-commander-fears-taiwan-could-invaded-within-6-years-after-china-sends-us-warning-1574964 https://www.newsweek.com/top-commander-fears-taiwan-could-in... Edit: I fail to see how China invading Taiwan could be considered a "military response", rather than a blatantly illegal land grab according to international law. Edit 2: The international law in question is the one forbidding annexation: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/07/israelopt-10-things-you-need-to-know-about-annexation/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/07/israelopt-10-...

xtian 5y ago
> we own Taiwan and we will depose their government by force if necessary, eventually. Until very recently this was Taiwan's stance on China. What exactly would China gain from invading Taiwan? My understanding is that their main goal is preventing the expansion of US military presence and bases in the region, which Taiwan's pro-independence party supports. Response to your edit: China invading Taiwan would not be an annexation according to international law. A small minority of nations recognize Taiwan's sovereignty, and historically it is not a sovereign nation. Taiwan represents the losing side of a Chinese civil war that recently decided it wants to be a sovereign nation as its hopes of retaking the mainland have evaporated.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  A propaganda coup, first of all. They have been promising their increasingly nationalistic populace this prize for nearly a century. Second: They eliminate a very important forward operating base for any future containment of China by Five Eyes & Co. Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. The rationale for invasion is clear. Particularly if they have calculated they can't or won't be stopped. I know more than a few mainlanders and they all strongly believe that Taiwan and China will be "reunified" within their lifetime. Edit: Does anyone here care that none of the Taiwanese want to be part of China? Yes, they are the "losing side" of a civil war from almost a century ago. That's completely irrelevant given how long they have had sovereignty at this point. That they are not more widely recognized in the international community is a tragedy. The U.S. is correct to continue to support their independence.
  - xtian 5y ago
    > Third: It's 23 million people who have built an advanced economy. Being able to siphon that wealth will be a massive boon for the CCP and other parts of China. Ah yes, the filthy lucre of siphoning an economy with 4% of their own GDP.
    - chitowneats 5y ago
      4% is 4%. They are paying the expenditures to maintain their military. Why would they not be looking for a return on their investment? It's strange we're even arguing about this given that their official position is that they will invade in due time if Taiwan does not unconditionally surrender. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-taiwan-invasion-military-exercise/2020/10/12/291f5d86-0c58-11eb-b404-8d1e675ec701_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-taiw... "In its annual work report this year, the Chinese government removed the word "peaceful" from long-standing references to "reunification" with Taiwan."
      - xtian 5y ago
Leary 5y ago
Which international law would China be violating by invading Taiwan?
- randomopining 5y ago
  Taiwan fits all criteria under international law for a country. Plus CCP would kill hundreds of thousands or millions during a forceful invasion of Taiwan. Laws always have loopholes. It's clear that the CCP would be doing something evil by attacking a peaceful island nation. They want control.
  - f6v 5y ago
    > Plus CCP would kill hundreds of thousands or millions during a forceful invasion of Taiwan. > They want control. Does not add up. Who're they going to control if they kill millions? I mean, why do they even have to start a military offensive when they can eventually outcompete Taiwan? Just think how many top-rated universities China has.
    - theandrewbailey 5y ago
      > Does not add up. Who're they going to control if they kill millions? Their citizens on the mainland. The CCP believes that if they don't look good, their days are numbered and revolution will be inevitable.
      - xtian 5y ago
        A survey conducted by the Harvard Kennedy School found that satisfaction with the central government in China rose from 86.1% in 2003 to 93.1% in 2016: https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resilience-surveying-chinese-public-opinion-through-time https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resil... Is the US government's abysmal approval rating by comparison a sign of our free thinking and freedom, or do you think we'll have a revolution here soon?
        5y ago
dheera 5y ago
In practice, international law only applies to small countries with small militaries.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  Correct
- rendang 5y ago
  Sometimes, not even them.
FpUser 5y ago
>"The international law" The law is only as good as there is an entity capable and willing to impartially enforce it. Meanwhile as it stands now any reasonably capable country can show big fat middle finger to that concept which makes it but a mockery.
- f6v 5y ago
  Nuclear weapons + huge economy = I do whatever I want.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
f6v 5y ago
> Top brass in the U.S. military is saying an invasion is likely within the decade So you're saying if China/Russia/Iran did not have any plans whatsoever, the US generals would just say "Alrighty, you can now defund us!". Those guys will cry wolf any day to get those sweet $billions.

throwaway5752 5y ago

I agree with you - it's an awful article, it was just the first one I found searching for the quote I was looking for. And you are right, more in the last four years Western and specifically in the US, coverage of China have been dubious, particularly some media entities. But I don't think the Strait of Taiwan tensions and the recent South China Sea escalations are anything that I need to find an article to document, though. If China can drastically weaken the semi industry in Taiwan by hiring away their top talent to sit around and do nothing, it would be a stunningly inexpensive way to help achieve this long term strategic objective. They would be foolish not to try, and it's understandable and correct Taiwan would see it in this light.