8 ms·

To me, no education, no experience jobs are the norm. Does that restaurant pay incoming career food service staff a wage sufficient to raise a family on? A so

To me, no education, no experience jobs are the norm. Does that restaurant pay incoming career food service staff a wage sufficient to raise a family on? A solid third of the households in the US take in under 50k/yr. More than half that are under 25k. I don't know about you, but 37k doesn't go far. Assuming 30% effective tax rate that's 2158/mo. 1 bed flat in my city $1400 Cell phone bill: $100 Home internet: $100 Electricity: $50 Heating: $50 Healthcare: $230* assuming 50% sponsored Car payment: $400 Insurance: $130 Without including food, dental insurance, deductible, OOP limits, retirement contributions, emergency savings, and anything at all for pleasure I've exceeded my budget. So, please, tell me more about how that's a good wage. How can someone go about improving ones position in life if they're kicked into a world that they'll never be able to afford? Should I go to college as an adult and get into eye watering levels of debt that'll follow me out of bankruptcy to keep bussing tables, like all the people that do just that? How can I juggle my full time job, side hustles at uber and lift (to keep the lights on), and a full course load? There are structural problems in society that no amount of blaming poor peoples bad decisions can wave away. Simple fact is some people with very large waists are going to have to tighten their belts so the millions of Americans whose only mistake was being born poor can have half of a fair chance at success and lead a modest yet dignified existence. There's no incentive for any halfway intelligent poor person to go to college unless they're a glutton for punishment, have a strong $upport network, and massive appetite for risk. https://www.statista.com/statistics/203183/percentage-distribution-of-household-income-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/203183/percentage-distri...

majoram 5y ago
Thanks man, you really understand. Good post. It's sad to say, but the pandemic was lifechanging for me. With the unemployment benefits I received, I was able to save up some money and had time for myself to start thinking about what I needed to do before the money disappeared into rent. I applied for the local community college and trying to get financial aid here in California, and if it works out, I'll "only" pay like $3.5k for each of the two years. If they don't give me financial aid, it's time to give up lol. I wouldn't have been able to afford even entertaining this idea before, because all the money disappears into living expenses. The pandemic saved me...the only way for someone like me to get a higher education, is for a global pandemic to happen at 24 years old haha.
unethical_ban 5y ago
I should have been more clear, but I didn't have coffee yet. $18/hr being "great" was meant to compare to what I hear people tend to make in that position, not that it is objectively great as a living wage for a family. My post was a little twist-and-turn - I was thinking about two related things, one being the tactical issue of wages in food service, and the other macro issue about the fact that this country has enough wealth in it for everyone to be well taken care of.
prepend 5y ago
These are just hypothetical numbers but I think the problem here is that people are resourceful and work to change or reduce these expenses. Everyone’s story varies, but it’s pretty common to address these with: Rent- get a roommate or rent a room instead of a one bedroom flat. Rent is reduced from $1400. Use a prepaid phone plan to reduce from $100. Use a slower speed or share internet to reduce from $100. Motorcycle or cheaper car to reduce from $530. These aren’t impossible problems and are things that are really common to deal with. I worked with people in Manhattan who slept three to a bed. That obviously sucks but assuming that every single person should have a one bedroom flat with their own car and luxury internet and phone is not as good an assumption that people will adjust their spending.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
  There are a lot of inherent assumptions in your rebuttal. >Rent- get a roommate or rent a room instead of a one bedroom flat. Rent is reduced from $1400. While that is an option, it is not reasonable to make that assertion for the millions of people struggling without adequate housing. How can you tell people, with a straight face, that have been sexually assaulted, robbed, or battered by previous roommates that they should continue to put themselves at risk because they can't afford the market rate for a 1br apartment? Many people that are housing insecure face discrimination in their searches as well. Landlords have countless incentives and ways to refuse renting to people who they perceive as poor. Credit checks, wage statements, large cash deposits. Then there's everything they can learn during a showing. How do they dress, are they wearing Wal-Mart clothes or Patagonia? Did they bring their same sex partner? Are they BIPOC? Do they have a nice car or no car? Is everything they own in their car? I think that I've said enough to make this point but I can continue if you want. >Use a prepaid phone plan to reduce from $100. Phones are still several hundred dollars, and are effectively disposable items. In conversations about poor people we cannot assume they can afford to put up several hundred dollars for a used phone. $100 might be on the high end, but I am thinking more about the amortized all-in costs of phones. Stuff like cases, chargers, screen protectors, that often get sold to people at stores under high pressure sales tactics. We also need to consider access. If someone just broke their phone and need a new one ASAP or they'll lose their job they are at the mercy of what's available to them at that moment. They may not be able to shop around or know how to do a price comparison between providers. They may get coerced into signing expensive multi year contracts by dishonest sales reps of which the total cost is not apparent for weeks. >Use a slower speed or share internet to reduce from $100. That's not always an option. For years, the cheapest non-dsl, option available to me was cable internet, for over $100/mo without a contact. For people with housing insecurity signing multi year contracts is scary because they have no reason to believe they will live in the same place for that long. >Motorcycle or cheaper car to reduce from $530. Motorcycles are not a rational option for virtually everyone. They're unsafe, and at greater risk of being stolen in the areas poor people are congregated. I'm not saying the car payment is $400, but ones either paying more upfront for a reliable vehicle or on the back end in repairs. If one gets burned enough by scam repair shops and used car sales people they'll inevitably look to cars with manufacturer warranties. Poor areas have more sketchy repair shops and high pressure used car sales lots that straddle people with high interest car payments, even if they qualify for great rates. >These aren’t impossible problems and are things that are really common to deal with. I worked with people in Manhattan who slept three to a bed. That obviously sucks but assuming that every single person should have a one bedroom flat with their own car and luxury internet and phone is not as good an assumption that people will adjust their spending. I think you're making wide assumptions that are not reflective of the reality poor people face. It is callous to assume that poor people have the same ability and education to know how to navigate things like loans, auto repair, comparison shopping, house hunting, etc while they're possibly homeless and probably working in excess of 40 hour weeks barely scraping by. This is my lived experience, I've seen too many families that do everything right get absolutely crushed into homelessness because the company the worked for blew up, they got scammed, or were disabled by a workplace accident. These conversations are overly reductive when we cannot focus on the specific contexts under which people fall out of 'normal' society into homelessness or near homelessness. Without this context we cannot have reasoned discussions about the factors that lead to homelessness and prevent people from escaping.
dcolkitt 5y ago
30% is way to high an effective tax rate at that income. Below median earners pay effectively zero taxes with the EITC and standard deductible. $400 is way too high for a car payment. You can get a great used compact for $10k. With decent credit that’ll run you $150/month. $100 is way too high for home Internet. I pay $40/month for 100 mbps, which is more than enough for five decides to stream simultaneously. $1400 is too high. A low earner should be saving money by getting a roommate. I can easily find rooms for rent in my medium COL metro for $700/month. Heck, I can find one bedroom houses for sale where the PITA mortgage is well below $1400.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > $100 is way too high for home Internet. I pay $40/month for 100 mbps, which is more than enough for five decides to stream simultaneously. It's either pay that or get DSL in many places in the US.
- AngryData 5y ago
  $100 is not too much for internet, I pay a bit more than that and it is the only internet available at all outside of my cellphones poor 4g coverage.
  - SkyPuncher 5y ago
    I pay $100/month for internet, but that's basically the top tier offer (and I WFH every day). I could get a plan for $40. If I were low income, I could get a plan for as little as $15 to $25/month.
- jonnycomputer 5y ago
  Federal income tax, state income tax and local property and sales tax. Social Security and Medicare taxes. I agree 30% is too high an estimate for below median incomes, but its closer 9-15%, according to this: https://thecollegeinvestor.com/34072/effective-tax-rates/ https://thecollegeinvestor.com/34072/effective-tax-rates/ And if you include health insurance--which in other countries is provided for and paid for with taxes--then it goes up. A lot.

majoram 5y ago

Thanks man, you really understand. Good post. It's sad to say, but the pandemic was lifechanging for me. With the unemployment benefits I received, I was able to save up some money and had time for myself to start thinking about what I needed to do before the money disappeared into rent. I applied for the local community college and trying to get financial aid here in California, and if it works out, I'll "only" pay like $3.5k for each of the two years. If they don't give me financial aid, it's time to give up lol. I wouldn't have been able to afford even entertaining this idea before, because all the money disappears into living expenses. The pandemic saved me...the only way for someone like me to get a higher education, is for a global pandemic to happen at 24 years old haha.

unethical_ban 5y ago

I should have been more clear, but I didn't have coffee yet. $18/hr being "great" was meant to compare to what I hear people tend to make in that position, not that it is objectively great as a living wage for a family. My post was a little twist-and-turn - I was thinking about two related things, one being the tactical issue of wages in food service, and the other macro issue about the fact that this country has enough wealth in it for everyone to be well taken care of.

prepend 5y ago

These are just hypothetical numbers but I think the problem here is that people are resourceful and work to change or reduce these expenses. Everyone’s story varies, but it’s pretty common to address these with: Rent- get a roommate or rent a room instead of a one bedroom flat. Rent is reduced from $1400. Use a prepaid phone plan to reduce from $100. Use a slower speed or share internet to reduce from $100. Motorcycle or cheaper car to reduce from $530. These aren’t impossible problems and are things that are really common to deal with. I worked with people in Manhattan who slept three to a bed. That obviously sucks but assuming that every single person should have a one bedroom flat with their own car and luxury internet and phone is not as good an assumption that people will adjust their spending.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
There are a lot of inherent assumptions in your rebuttal. >Rent- get a roommate or rent a room instead of a one bedroom flat. Rent is reduced from $1400. While that is an option, it is not reasonable to make that assertion for the millions of people struggling without adequate housing. How can you tell people, with a straight face, that have been sexually assaulted, robbed, or battered by previous roommates that they should continue to put themselves at risk because they can't afford the market rate for a 1br apartment? Many people that are housing insecure face discrimination in their searches as well. Landlords have countless incentives and ways to refuse renting to people who they perceive as poor. Credit checks, wage statements, large cash deposits. Then there's everything they can learn during a showing. How do they dress, are they wearing Wal-Mart clothes or Patagonia? Did they bring their same sex partner? Are they BIPOC? Do they have a nice car or no car? Is everything they own in their car? I think that I've said enough to make this point but I can continue if you want. >Use a prepaid phone plan to reduce from $100. Phones are still several hundred dollars, and are effectively disposable items. In conversations about poor people we cannot assume they can afford to put up several hundred dollars for a used phone. $100 might be on the high end, but I am thinking more about the amortized all-in costs of phones. Stuff like cases, chargers, screen protectors, that often get sold to people at stores under high pressure sales tactics. We also need to consider access. If someone just broke their phone and need a new one ASAP or they'll lose their job they are at the mercy of what's available to them at that moment. They may not be able to shop around or know how to do a price comparison between providers. They may get coerced into signing expensive multi year contracts by dishonest sales reps of which the total cost is not apparent for weeks. >Use a slower speed or share internet to reduce from $100. That's not always an option. For years, the cheapest non-dsl, option available to me was cable internet, for over $100/mo without a contact. For people with housing insecurity signing multi year contracts is scary because they have no reason to believe they will live in the same place for that long. >Motorcycle or cheaper car to reduce from $530. Motorcycles are not a rational option for virtually everyone. They're unsafe, and at greater risk of being stolen in the areas poor people are congregated. I'm not saying the car payment is $400, but ones either paying more upfront for a reliable vehicle or on the back end in repairs. If one gets burned enough by scam repair shops and used car sales people they'll inevitably look to cars with manufacturer warranties. Poor areas have more sketchy repair shops and high pressure used car sales lots that straddle people with high interest car payments, even if they qualify for great rates. >These aren’t impossible problems and are things that are really common to deal with. I worked with people in Manhattan who slept three to a bed. That obviously sucks but assuming that every single person should have a one bedroom flat with their own car and luxury internet and phone is not as good an assumption that people will adjust their spending. I think you're making wide assumptions that are not reflective of the reality poor people face. It is callous to assume that poor people have the same ability and education to know how to navigate things like loans, auto repair, comparison shopping, house hunting, etc while they're possibly homeless and probably working in excess of 40 hour weeks barely scraping by. This is my lived experience, I've seen too many families that do everything right get absolutely crushed into homelessness because the company the worked for blew up, they got scammed, or were disabled by a workplace accident. These conversations are overly reductive when we cannot focus on the specific contexts under which people fall out of 'normal' society into homelessness or near homelessness. Without this context we cannot have reasoned discussions about the factors that lead to homelessness and prevent people from escaping.

dcolkitt 5y ago

30% is way to high an effective tax rate at that income. Below median earners pay effectively zero taxes with the EITC and standard deductible. $400 is way too high for a car payment. You can get a great used compact for $10k. With decent credit that’ll run you $150/month. $100 is way too high for home Internet. I pay $40/month for 100 mbps, which is more than enough for five decides to stream simultaneously. $1400 is too high. A low earner should be saving money by getting a roommate. I can easily find rooms for rent in my medium COL metro for $700/month. Heck, I can find one bedroom houses for sale where the PITA mortgage is well below $1400.

heavyset_go 5y ago
> $100 is way too high for home Internet. I pay $40/month for 100 mbps, which is more than enough for five decides to stream simultaneously. It's either pay that or get DSL in many places in the US.
AngryData 5y ago
$100 is not too much for internet, I pay a bit more than that and it is the only internet available at all outside of my cellphones poor 4g coverage.
- SkyPuncher 5y ago
  I pay $100/month for internet, but that's basically the top tier offer (and I WFH every day). I could get a plan for $40. If I were low income, I could get a plan for as little as $15 to $25/month.
jonnycomputer 5y ago
Federal income tax, state income tax and local property and sales tax. Social Security and Medicare taxes. I agree 30% is too high an estimate for below median incomes, but its closer 9-15%, according to this: https://thecollegeinvestor.com/34072/effective-tax-rates/ https://thecollegeinvestor.com/34072/effective-tax-rates/ And if you include health insurance--which in other countries is provided for and paid for with taxes--then it goes up. A lot.