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I don't think that it is correct to say that anyone is telling you anything. Apple has decided that they will drop support for devices after a certain period of

I don't think that it is correct to say that anyone is telling you anything. Apple has decided that they will drop support for devices after a certain period of time because the development effort of maintaining support is too costly given the number of users with the old hardware. If I could be emperor for a day I would just mandate that when they drop support an old device, they have to provide a way for users still owning that device to have unlimited ability to load and run any software on it. That way if you really want to keep using your first-gen iPad then you can support it yourself. But it doesn't seem right to mandate that someone else continue to spend effort supporting idiosyncratic choices of all users.

ryandrake 5y ago
While I agree with your "emperor for a day" solution, I'd like to point out that wanting to use a device I paid for longer than two years after I bought it is not an idiosyncratic choice. Apple's last OS update for the device (iOS 5.1.1) was a mere 2 years after the device's initial release. This is IMO totally unreasonable. I have a PC next to me that's 20 years old which still functions and runs a very recent Linux distribution.
- thinkharderdev 5y ago
  Did the device stop working or did they just stop updating it? If it actually stopped working then I agree it is really shitty of them and even if they stopped providing security updates it is kind of shitty of them. But I think the solution is to take your business elsewhere. It's not as if Apple has a monopoly on the smartphone market and you don't have other options.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    It happens gradually. A vulnerability here, a service turned down there, an app no longer available on the app store. It adds up to a device that does not do what it was advertised to do when it was new. Everything else I buy for my home (except for things with obvious wear items that physically wear out), I expect to function forever exactly as the day I purchased it, or be repairable. I have hand tools that were made 100 years ago, inherited from my grandpa, which work exactly as they are supposed to. Yet, we're expected to accept that software "wears out" after a few years.
    - joshspankit 5y ago
      > an app no longer available on the app store This is a subtle point about older devices that doesn't get enough attention imo. In order to have an app I purchased with the features I purchased on an older device that I purchased, I must: - Jailbreak the device - Extract the iOS app and externally save it - Turn off automatic updates for apps - Be signed in to the Apple account that purchased that app - Have that account be valid and not revoked At some point, Apple may: - Remove the app from the App store entirely - Allow an update to the app that changes or removes the features that I specifically wanted - Insist that the app does not support that older version of iOS (even if the version you purchased was fine, and only a later version removed support for older iOS versions) In order to restore access to the app in that case I must: - Jailbreak the device - Sign in to that Apple account - Copy the backed-up version of the app to the device - Risk losing any data in that app, especially if it was updated and I'm now downgrading to a version that might not support the newer data format
      - joshspankit 5y ago
        Source: I purchased the first iPad when it came out, and I've gone through all of these. The first let-down was Orphion: when I purchased the app it was amazing, but they used the finger touch API in a way that Apple did not agree with. They were forced to remove that API call in an update, and the app has not been the same since. Unfortunately I did not get a copy of the original version, and so I lost access to that specific experience that I paid for.
joshspankit 5y ago
I fully agree with the idea that ending support means you’re agreeing to hand the keys to the community
joshspankit 5y ago
What I mean about we (society) is that it’s public opinion that supports or limits legislation. If a small group of people decide to use devices after they are unsupported, they also need support from society in general to be able to get the right to exercise that choice. If we (society) don’t make the choice to actively support those rights, we are making the choice to let them die on the vine.
- thinkharderdev 5y ago
  Fair enough. I would just draw the line at mandating continued software support and updates. I was actually thinking earlier and would amend my "emperor for a day" plan. I think we should mandate an analog to Matt Levines Certificate for Dumb Investment (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-24/earning-the-right-to-get-swindled https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-24/earnin...). Vendors like Apple should be required to provide a mechanism to "jailbreak" any device they make so a user can run any firmware/software they choose, but to get access to that tool they need to go to apple.com and sign a form that says in big, bold red letters: "THIS IS A REALLY BAD IDEA AND DOING THIS VOIDS ANY WARRANTY OR GUARANTEE WE MAKE FOR THIS DEVICE. AND IF YOU INSIST ON DOING THIS YOU WILL PROBABLY EITHER GET HACKED OR LOSE ALL YOUR DATA. SO PLEASE DON'T DO THIS UNLESS YOU ARE 100% SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. AND IF YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING YOU ARE PROBABLY WRONG." And if you sign that you can download a tool to jailbreak your iPhone.

ryandrake 5y ago

While I agree with your "emperor for a day" solution, I'd like to point out that wanting to use a device I paid for longer than two years after I bought it is not an idiosyncratic choice. Apple's last OS update for the device (iOS 5.1.1) was a mere 2 years after the device's initial release. This is IMO totally unreasonable. I have a PC next to me that's 20 years old which still functions and runs a very recent Linux distribution.

thinkharderdev 5y ago
Did the device stop working or did they just stop updating it? If it actually stopped working then I agree it is really shitty of them and even if they stopped providing security updates it is kind of shitty of them. But I think the solution is to take your business elsewhere. It's not as if Apple has a monopoly on the smartphone market and you don't have other options.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  It happens gradually. A vulnerability here, a service turned down there, an app no longer available on the app store. It adds up to a device that does not do what it was advertised to do when it was new. Everything else I buy for my home (except for things with obvious wear items that physically wear out), I expect to function forever exactly as the day I purchased it, or be repairable. I have hand tools that were made 100 years ago, inherited from my grandpa, which work exactly as they are supposed to. Yet, we're expected to accept that software "wears out" after a few years.
  - joshspankit 5y ago
    > an app no longer available on the app store This is a subtle point about older devices that doesn't get enough attention imo. In order to have an app I purchased with the features I purchased on an older device that I purchased, I must: - Jailbreak the device - Extract the iOS app and externally save it - Turn off automatic updates for apps - Be signed in to the Apple account that purchased that app - Have that account be valid and not revoked At some point, Apple may: - Remove the app from the App store entirely - Allow an update to the app that changes or removes the features that I specifically wanted - Insist that the app does not support that older version of iOS (even if the version you purchased was fine, and only a later version removed support for older iOS versions) In order to restore access to the app in that case I must: - Jailbreak the device - Sign in to that Apple account - Copy the backed-up version of the app to the device - Risk losing any data in that app, especially if it was updated and I'm now downgrading to a version that might not support the newer data format
    - joshspankit 5y ago
      Source: I purchased the first iPad when it came out, and I've gone through all of these. The first let-down was Orphion: when I purchased the app it was amazing, but they used the finger touch API in a way that Apple did not agree with. They were forced to remove that API call in an update, and the app has not been the same since. Unfortunately I did not get a copy of the original version, and so I lost access to that specific experience that I paid for.

joshspankit 5y ago

I fully agree with the idea that ending support means you’re agreeing to hand the keys to the community

joshspankit 5y ago

What I mean about we (society) is that it’s public opinion that supports or limits legislation. If a small group of people decide to use devices after they are unsupported, they also need support from society in general to be able to get the right to exercise that choice. If we (society) don’t make the choice to actively support those rights, we are making the choice to let them die on the vine.

thinkharderdev 5y ago
Fair enough. I would just draw the line at mandating continued software support and updates. I was actually thinking earlier and would amend my "emperor for a day" plan. I think we should mandate an analog to Matt Levines Certificate for Dumb Investment (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-24/earning-the-right-to-get-swindled https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-24/earnin...). Vendors like Apple should be required to provide a mechanism to "jailbreak" any device they make so a user can run any firmware/software they choose, but to get access to that tool they need to go to apple.com and sign a form that says in big, bold red letters: "THIS IS A REALLY BAD IDEA AND DOING THIS VOIDS ANY WARRANTY OR GUARANTEE WE MAKE FOR THIS DEVICE. AND IF YOU INSIST ON DOING THIS YOU WILL PROBABLY EITHER GET HACKED OR LOSE ALL YOUR DATA. SO PLEASE DON'T DO THIS UNLESS YOU ARE 100% SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. AND IF YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING YOU ARE PROBABLY WRONG." And if you sign that you can download a tool to jailbreak your iPhone.