4 ms·

We used to have this right, but it feels like somewhere between 2010-2015, companies realized they could make more money by disallowing simple replacements. I

by scrose 5y ago

We used to have this right, but it feels like somewhere between 2010-2015, companies realized they could make more money by disallowing simple replacements. I used to make some money as a kid by buying batches of broken Iphone 3G/3GS's on ebay, replacing parts on them, and then re-selling them myself. Practically any part of that device could be replaced in less than 30 minutes with $15 worth of tools. I have a 2012MBP and a 2014MBP that I gave to my family that are still serving their purposes after a few quick(and cheap) battery, RAM and HDD replacements over the years. I don't expect my 2019 MBP to last more than 5 years without costing me at least several hundred dollars more when I inevitably have to bring it to the Apple store for them to fix something that very much used to be user-fixable in a matter of minutes.

JKCalhoun 5y ago
I draw the line at SMDs. We should go back to through-hole components — I can desolder and resolder those. Sorry, I'm not trying to mock you. Just saw an opportunity to be facetious, not facetious. And, actually, to sort of make a point: I don't buy into the idea that companies are intentionally doing this — intentionally disallowing replacement parts, although I maybe just be naive. I do in fact loathe SMDs (as a hobbyist) but I am quite sure that companies have moved to them for non-nefarious reasons as well.
- jack_h 5y ago
  This is pretty much it. Why do we use a BGA or WLCSP rather than a DIP package? Because we can’t fit a DIP package into the form factor, and manufacturing costs are higher. Why did we glue/epoxy a few components to the board? Because the device needed to pass a drop test such that components aren’t flying off. Why did we ultrasonically weld the enclosure shut? Because we needed IP68 or above rating and the price point we were trying to hit made that the most viable. I don’t necessarily have a problem with right to repair, but a lot of people don’t understand what goes into designing these things and attribute a lack of repairability with malfeasance rather than just the reality of manufacturing, economics, and consumer demands.
  - rasz 5y ago
    Straw man. No right to repair movement is arguing for making bulkier devices using older technology. I have zero problem with underfilled BGA _as long as I can buy replacement chip from legitimate source_.
- rasz 5y ago
  Your argument doesnt work, because your smd is crypto locks and monopolistic "you cant sell this part to anybody else" business deals. Manufacturers are starting to use cryptographic handshakes between components.
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  There is ample proof that Apple pays off their parts suppliers to prevent them from selling components on the open market. Louis Rossman has documented it well. Failure prone chips like USB muxers and voltage regulators that are unique to Apple devices but made by suppliers who's products are otherwise available on Digikey and Mouser somehow those aren't. SMDs are not anticonsumer. They are harder to work with but with practice anyone can deal with them just fine. I've yet to see anyone argue for a through hole mandate. But I have seen people argue for banning clearly anti repair design practices like gluing assemblies together. Or designing a screen in such a way that you have a high chance of breaking it when removing it.
- operator-name 5y ago
  Apple is a very well documented example of companies intentially disallowing replacement parts. Many of their parts are linked to the motherboard in software, and even a doner replacement from another decide restricts features. There's a line between warning the user that the repair is potentially dangerous and removing their right of ownership to repair their product unless apple had authorised it.
tims33 5y ago
Our expectations on the size and integrated nature of these devices seem to be the thing that caused everything to get glued together.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  I took apart my old smartphone at one point. It was old enough that the battery was attached with screws and connected to the board with a cable and a connector. It's not bigger than existing phones. It doesn't weigh more, it's not thicker. The weight of a battery connector and a couple of screws is what, a couple of grams, if that? "We needed to make it thinner" is just an excuse.
jbm 5y ago
I have a mid-year 2012 MBP. The battery was glued in place and it is generally a PITA to repair. I believe the generation before was the last one that was repairable.

by scrose 5y ago

JKCalhoun 5y ago

I draw the line at SMDs. We should go back to through-hole components — I can desolder and resolder those. Sorry, I'm not trying to mock you. Just saw an opportunity to be facetious, not facetious. And, actually, to sort of make a point: I don't buy into the idea that companies are intentionally doing this — intentionally disallowing replacement parts, although I maybe just be naive. I do in fact loathe SMDs (as a hobbyist) but I am quite sure that companies have moved to them for non-nefarious reasons as well.

jack_h 5y ago
This is pretty much it. Why do we use a BGA or WLCSP rather than a DIP package? Because we can’t fit a DIP package into the form factor, and manufacturing costs are higher. Why did we glue/epoxy a few components to the board? Because the device needed to pass a drop test such that components aren’t flying off. Why did we ultrasonically weld the enclosure shut? Because we needed IP68 or above rating and the price point we were trying to hit made that the most viable. I don’t necessarily have a problem with right to repair, but a lot of people don’t understand what goes into designing these things and attribute a lack of repairability with malfeasance rather than just the reality of manufacturing, economics, and consumer demands.
- rasz 5y ago
  Straw man. No right to repair movement is arguing for making bulkier devices using older technology. I have zero problem with underfilled BGA _as long as I can buy replacement chip from legitimate source_.
rasz 5y ago
Your argument doesnt work, because your smd is crypto locks and monopolistic "you cant sell this part to anybody else" business deals. Manufacturers are starting to use cryptographic handshakes between components.
thereddaikon 5y ago
There is ample proof that Apple pays off their parts suppliers to prevent them from selling components on the open market. Louis Rossman has documented it well. Failure prone chips like USB muxers and voltage regulators that are unique to Apple devices but made by suppliers who's products are otherwise available on Digikey and Mouser somehow those aren't. SMDs are not anticonsumer. They are harder to work with but with practice anyone can deal with them just fine. I've yet to see anyone argue for a through hole mandate. But I have seen people argue for banning clearly anti repair design practices like gluing assemblies together. Or designing a screen in such a way that you have a high chance of breaking it when removing it.
operator-name 5y ago
Apple is a very well documented example of companies intentially disallowing replacement parts. Many of their parts are linked to the motherboard in software, and even a doner replacement from another decide restricts features. There's a line between warning the user that the repair is potentially dangerous and removing their right of ownership to repair their product unless apple had authorised it.

tims33 5y ago

Our expectations on the size and integrated nature of these devices seem to be the thing that caused everything to get glued together.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
I took apart my old smartphone at one point. It was old enough that the battery was attached with screws and connected to the board with a cable and a connector. It's not bigger than existing phones. It doesn't weigh more, it's not thicker. The weight of a battery connector and a couple of screws is what, a couple of grams, if that? "We needed to make it thinner" is just an excuse.

jbm 5y ago

I have a mid-year 2012 MBP. The battery was glued in place and it is generally a PITA to repair. I believe the generation before was the last one that was repairable.