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This comment could have been written a decade ago and it was as laughable back then as it is today. Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users

This comment could have been written a decade ago and it was as laughable back then as it is today. Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users do. And they don’t want Linux on the desktop.

gnrlst 6y ago
I'm not so sure. It's a chicken egg problem: if developers get so frustrated that they suddenly start building great experiences on Linux, the users will flock there. It won't be a fast exodus, and it won't be clear cut, but it will set in motion a transition. Developers follow demand, but users follow supply. If enough developers create supply elsewhere, and that supply gets interesting, users will come.
- threeseed 6y ago
  Many OEMs including large ones like Dell have built Linux desktops and laptops over the years. No one buys them. It’s not because of the lack of apps but because the basics are so poor e.g. broken sleep mode, driver instability, poor battery life, changing UI etc
  - mixmastamyk 6y ago
    Been using the dev models for almost ten years, none of those are a problem. Ubuntu Mate is a good choice for a stable gui.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    > No one buys them. Pfffft. OK! Clearly this is incorrect... We have whole companies like System 76 built around selling Linux desktop systems. We have whole divisions of PC manufacturers for selling Linux desktop systems. If nobody was buying them, they'd cease to exist. Non-developers largely don't buy them, that's all. Also, many developers are aware that Linux runs on anything, so a large portion of Linux users just install it on whatever hardware they already have. The rest buy systems from Dell, System 76, etc. or build their own. > because the basics are so poor e.g. broken sleep mode, driver instability, poor battery life, changing UI etc. Developers obviously buy pre-built Linux laptops that have none of these sleep/driver/battery problems. I work with some of them. If one makes a sensible choice and uses a desktop environment like XFCE, they would notice that there's much, much, much less instability in the UI when compared to Windows, macOS, Gnome or KDE. Personally, I prefer desktop systems and I have never had to spend more than 40 minutes getting Linux running on any desktop PC that I've tried it on outside of my Mac Pro from 2012, which was only problematic because it's not a real PC with a normal BIOS or boot procedure it's a locked down Apple terminal. I've seen way, way, way more problems with macOS and Windows than I have with people running Linux in our office. Certain mice and keyboards won't even work on a Mac!
- m4rtink 6y ago
  One can already see it in some areas with the popularity of containers, with many developers choosing Linux as other operating systems have poor to no container support (often nothing more than running them in a Linux VM). Stupid anti-developper practices of proprietary OS vendors will result in only more developers migrating to Linux distros.
  - jeroenhd 6y ago
    Microsoft has pretty much solved this with WSL/WSL2. I hate the obsessive stalking and much of the redesign of Windows 10, but at it's core, it's better for many general consumers. As a developer, I run into Windows' superior dealing with low-memory situations quite often. My work dev machine has 16GiB of RAM, but my full-stack development work is pushing my system past the 16GiB mark easily now. Coworkers using Windows have similar problems, but their system slows down whereas mine completely freezes for 30 seconds at a time while the system struggles to find some free memory. For the people who would tell me to "just get more RAM": it's out of my hands, and 16GiB should be more than enough for this type of work anyway. Most software written these days, especially tools aimed at developers, seems to think everyone has 128GiB of RAM and that bad memory handling can best be solved by buying more hardware. With Gnome 40 and systemd 248, the Linux experience will become just a tad more friendly for both general users and developers, but there's a lot of improvement that can still be made to the Linux experience.
    - kaba0 6y ago
      Try out zram, it compresses memory in-memory and is a real life-changer. On <=8Gib systems it is mandatory for regular use.
maxwell 6y ago
Why do users choose a platform? Apps. Who makes the apps? Developers embraced Windows over Mac, users followed. (Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine.) Developers embraced iOS and Android over Symbian and webOS. Windows and Mac were great development platforms ten years ago, and iOS and Android were way better than the now-dead competition.
- Jcowell 6y ago
  Yes but it means nothing if consumers are not buying the hardware with Linux. The average consumer is not going to put Linux on their computer if it’s not as simple as downloading a browser or upgrading an operating system.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    There are practically no stores which sell hardware with Linux.
    - eitland 6y ago
      That doesn't prevent it from becoming so mainstream at work that even one salesman(!) at work used it. Yes you have to jump through hoops and not everyone in IT is extremely happy always but even some of them prefer it. To me it feels kind of like when Mac broke through in developer circles. First it was weird and IT department laughed. Then more and more people including bosses demanded it and here we are: if a job demands all devs use Windows many devs will go somewhere else.
      - fsflover 6y ago
        > That doesn't prevent it from becoming so mainstream at work I would say that it does. If your boss is not aware of this system, they will not allow to use it or consider secure. At work, I am typically not allowed to freely choose my OS.
        6y ago
xhkkffbf 6y ago
Technically, Chromebooks are Chrome on top of Linux. It's not a full desktop, but it's a desktop and it's pretty popular. Especially in schools.
wayneftw 6y ago
> Apple devices are becoming increasingly unusable for developers. Nothing laughable about that. It's absolutely 100% true. That's why only 25% of developers are on a Mac. Outside of the Silicon Valley bubble that number goes way down. > Fantastic opportunity for Linux apps to gain more dev resources, as anyone with a bit of foresight sees little future in macOS, iOS, Windows, or Android as development platforms. Linux apps have steadily been gaining more dev resources. That's why we have big companies like Microsoft bending over backwards to make things like VS Code run on Linux or in Linux container tech. > Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users do. And they don’t want Linux on the desktop. Linux is on more systems than any other OS. Was that because of Users? Nope. If Macs and iPhones disappeared tomorrow, the world would largely continue on without much hassle. If Linux or Windows disappeared, we'd have a worldwide catastrophe on our hands. Users never chose Windows either. Developers and the businesses that they worked for did. The number of normies using Linux on the desktop isn't a good metric. There are as many devs on Linux as there are on a Mac. Of those, I'd say more than half are not even targetting iOS but rather the web. So, Apple is always just a few bad moves away from losing those web devs to a Linux desktop.

gnrlst 6y ago

I'm not so sure. It's a chicken egg problem: if developers get so frustrated that they suddenly start building great experiences on Linux, the users will flock there. It won't be a fast exodus, and it won't be clear cut, but it will set in motion a transition. Developers follow demand, but users follow supply. If enough developers create supply elsewhere, and that supply gets interesting, users will come.

threeseed 6y ago
Many OEMs including large ones like Dell have built Linux desktops and laptops over the years. No one buys them. It’s not because of the lack of apps but because the basics are so poor e.g. broken sleep mode, driver instability, poor battery life, changing UI etc
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  Been using the dev models for almost ten years, none of those are a problem. Ubuntu Mate is a good choice for a stable gui.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  > No one buys them. Pfffft. OK! Clearly this is incorrect... We have whole companies like System 76 built around selling Linux desktop systems. We have whole divisions of PC manufacturers for selling Linux desktop systems. If nobody was buying them, they'd cease to exist. Non-developers largely don't buy them, that's all. Also, many developers are aware that Linux runs on anything, so a large portion of Linux users just install it on whatever hardware they already have. The rest buy systems from Dell, System 76, etc. or build their own. > because the basics are so poor e.g. broken sleep mode, driver instability, poor battery life, changing UI etc. Developers obviously buy pre-built Linux laptops that have none of these sleep/driver/battery problems. I work with some of them. If one makes a sensible choice and uses a desktop environment like XFCE, they would notice that there's much, much, much less instability in the UI when compared to Windows, macOS, Gnome or KDE. Personally, I prefer desktop systems and I have never had to spend more than 40 minutes getting Linux running on any desktop PC that I've tried it on outside of my Mac Pro from 2012, which was only problematic because it's not a real PC with a normal BIOS or boot procedure it's a locked down Apple terminal. I've seen way, way, way more problems with macOS and Windows than I have with people running Linux in our office. Certain mice and keyboards won't even work on a Mac!
m4rtink 6y ago
One can already see it in some areas with the popularity of containers, with many developers choosing Linux as other operating systems have poor to no container support (often nothing more than running them in a Linux VM). Stupid anti-developper practices of proprietary OS vendors will result in only more developers migrating to Linux distros.
- jeroenhd 6y ago
  Microsoft has pretty much solved this with WSL/WSL2. I hate the obsessive stalking and much of the redesign of Windows 10, but at it's core, it's better for many general consumers. As a developer, I run into Windows' superior dealing with low-memory situations quite often. My work dev machine has 16GiB of RAM, but my full-stack development work is pushing my system past the 16GiB mark easily now. Coworkers using Windows have similar problems, but their system slows down whereas mine completely freezes for 30 seconds at a time while the system struggles to find some free memory. For the people who would tell me to "just get more RAM": it's out of my hands, and 16GiB should be more than enough for this type of work anyway. Most software written these days, especially tools aimed at developers, seems to think everyone has 128GiB of RAM and that bad memory handling can best be solved by buying more hardware. With Gnome 40 and systemd 248, the Linux experience will become just a tad more friendly for both general users and developers, but there's a lot of improvement that can still be made to the Linux experience.
  - kaba0 6y ago
    Try out zram, it compresses memory in-memory and is a real life-changer. On <=8Gib systems it is mandatory for regular use.

maxwell 6y ago

Why do users choose a platform? Apps. Who makes the apps? Developers embraced Windows over Mac, users followed. (Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine.) Developers embraced iOS and Android over Symbian and webOS. Windows and Mac were great development platforms ten years ago, and iOS and Android were way better than the now-dead competition.

Jcowell 6y ago
Yes but it means nothing if consumers are not buying the hardware with Linux. The average consumer is not going to put Linux on their computer if it’s not as simple as downloading a browser or upgrading an operating system.
- fsflover 6y ago
  There are practically no stores which sell hardware with Linux.
  - eitland 6y ago
    That doesn't prevent it from becoming so mainstream at work that even one salesman(!) at work used it. Yes you have to jump through hoops and not everyone in IT is extremely happy always but even some of them prefer it. To me it feels kind of like when Mac broke through in developer circles. First it was weird and IT department laughed. Then more and more people including bosses demanded it and here we are: if a job demands all devs use Windows many devs will go somewhere else.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      > That doesn't prevent it from becoming so mainstream at work I would say that it does. If your boss is not aware of this system, they will not allow to use it or consider secure. At work, I am typically not allowed to freely choose my OS.
      - 6y ago

xhkkffbf 6y ago

Technically, Chromebooks are Chrome on top of Linux. It's not a full desktop, but it's a desktop and it's pretty popular. Especially in schools.

wayneftw 6y ago

> Apple devices are becoming increasingly unusable for developers. Nothing laughable about that. It's absolutely 100% true. That's why only 25% of developers are on a Mac. Outside of the Silicon Valley bubble that number goes way down. > Fantastic opportunity for Linux apps to gain more dev resources, as anyone with a bit of foresight sees little future in macOS, iOS, Windows, or Android as development platforms. Linux apps have steadily been gaining more dev resources. That's why we have big companies like Microsoft bending over backwards to make things like VS Code run on Linux or in Linux container tech. > Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users do. And they don’t want Linux on the desktop. Linux is on more systems than any other OS. Was that because of Users? Nope. If Macs and iPhones disappeared tomorrow, the world would largely continue on without much hassle. If Linux or Windows disappeared, we'd have a worldwide catastrophe on our hands. Users never chose Windows either. Developers and the businesses that they worked for did. The number of normies using Linux on the desktop isn't a good metric. There are as many devs on Linux as there are on a Mac. Of those, I'd say more than half are not even targetting iOS but rather the web. So, Apple is always just a few bad moves away from losing those web devs to a Linux desktop.