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Intel seeks $10B in subsidies for European chip plant
- mariuolo 5y agoDoes it make sense for the EU to give subsidies to a foreign company if the end is to attain strategic autonomy in the semiconductors field?
- CheezeIt 5y agoThat’s the question, isn’t it. The workers, plants, and much of the technical knowledge won’t be foreign.
- thu2111 5y agoYeah, but people could work at Intel in Ireland for a long time, ditto for Google in Ireland/Switzerland etc. Knowledge transfer happens but the people it goes to stay with the US firms. Or they leave but aren't interested in competing with their old haunts and go to do something else.
- mrweasel 5y agoIt could depend on you time line. If you're thinking 20 - 30 years, then it may not be a bad idea. Get some US company to build a plant and run a plant, then hope that at some point some of the employees will want to start their own companies, using the knowledge they've gained working at Intel. Seems like a long shot though
- stefano 5y agoMaybe if it comes with clauses for a substantial transfer of technology to EU partners. But I doubt Intel would agree to that.
- allie1 5y agoEU can ban trade on semiconductors and stop it from exporting at any point, effectively avoiding shortages in case of wars pandemics etc much like the US and later EU did for vaccines. Even though US doesnt export vaccines due to a ban, Pfizer has a plant in the EU making and selling the vaccine in the EU.
- xyzzy21 5y agoBut not in the US... tells you something.
- ars 5y agoI think it tells you they smell money :) The US probably won't give them a subsidy, but the EU really wants tech and might be willing to pay for it.
- foepys 5y agoEverybody is currently throwing money at chip makers as the world finally realizes how dependent it became on chip production in Asia. Intel is just smart and wants to get subsidies in the US and in the EU. There already are several chip making fabs in the EU, btw.
- thu2111 5y agoYes but the only ones not on long since obsolete nodes are the Intel fabs in Ireland, I think.
- foepys 5y agoObsolete is very relative. You can still use chips produced on 40nm for embedded controllers that control large industrial machinery.
- bryanlarsen 5y agoIs the Global Foundries Dresden 22nm fdsoi plant "long since obsolete"?
- makapuf 5y ago22nm is ivy bridge, Intel ça. 2011. I wonder what the perf would be with a modern design on this process.
- the_duke 5y ago
- PeterStuer 5y agoIsn't Intel already receiving substantial EU subsidies through their partnership with IMEC in Belgium?
- rsj_hn 5y agoI'm not aware of this -- can you provide a link or eloborate a bit?
- intricatedetail 5y agoCan I get subsidy to build a chip plant? Surely with 10b I could get a team and build something?
- lostlogin 5y agoYou joke, but what makes Intel the best bet over other options?
- mhermher 5y agoTheir IP
- zapdrive 5y agoYes, if you are ready to invest like 10-20 bln, I'm sure they'll offer you subsidies. Subsidies are not upfront payments from the govt. They are usually reduced taxes, etc. So if you are going to invest and do something that will raise a 10 bln tax bill, maybe they'll consider your offer as well.
- mhh__ 5y agoHonestly you'd probably be more qualified than some of the companies the UK government has been dealing with recently. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/30/no-deal-brexit-ferry-company-owns-no-ships-and-has-never-run-ferry-service https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/30/no-deal-bre... for example (and it's got worse since)
- turbinerneiter 5y agoThat's 20 bucks per european citizen. With that money we could just build our own fab, we don't need intel for that. Are the european citizens supposed to pay for intel's fab? Do we get the chips for free then? What the heck is up with these companies? Capitalism means they have to spend their own capital, not the publics.
- guardiangod 5y ago>With that money we could just build our own fab Not that I support government subsidies but $10 billion would not build you a 5nm fab. Heck, it wouldn't even get you a 14nm, with the rate the Chinese are sucking up all the used fab equipment.
- turbinerneiter 5y agoWe build that fab equipment in Europe. The highest estimate I found was 20bn. If we are spotting intel 50% of the cost, why not go all the way and do it ourselves? There are a lot of small european semi companies, both design and manufacturing, that we could this with instead. Why not give that money to Infineon? Makes no sense.
- danuker 5y agoThere's the advantage of know-how. Perhaps you get better ROI letting specialized people do it.
- turbinerneiter 5y agoHow does europe build know how by giving tax cut to foreign companies? We have our own semiconductor industry. Why not help them instead of intel?
- guardiangod 5y ago> We build that fab equipment in Europe. Europe builds _1_ component for one fab stage (the EUV litho machines). For the other stages, there are other manufacturers in other countries. https://archive.ph/HEI2z https://archive.ph/HEI2z Japan is still the dominate supplier of the chemicals used in silicon fabs. The majority of the process is still DUV layers (less advance than EUV), and Japan's Nikon/Canon are the leaders in DUV. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4412366-asml-not-dominant-without-euv https://seekingalpha.com/article/4412366-asml-not-dominant-w... Secondly, TSMC and Samsung use EUV for only a few chip layers, and use DUV immersion for the rest, so both types of systems are needed at and below 7nm. The number of mask layers increases as nodes decrease. A 28nm IC has up to 50 layers, a 14nm/10nm has 60 layers, A 7nm IC has 80 layers, and A 5nm IC has 100, depending on manufacturer. TSMC uses EUV for just 12 layers at 7nm vs. 68 DUV layers. TSMC uses EUV for 22 layers at 5nm vs 78 DUV layers. Immersion DUV is critical to make these chips, and ASML is losing share to Nikon.
- LordOfWolves 5y agoOnly an already large, successful company can ask for - and frequently receive - funds which will primarily benefit said (for-profit) company.. Competition is often the catalyst for the creation of the many innovations that society makes use of. What am I missing here..?
- danuker 5y agoThe impossible investments required to compete here.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y agoI wish governments would "collude" to ban these types of subsidies, because at the end of the day it's just basically regressive taxation: smaller businesses and startups need to pay their full, fair share of taxes, while huge successful companies pay next to nothing.
- int3 5y agoIntel has a lot more to offer than the smaller businesses. It's a mutual exchange -- more than you can say for the typical tax.
- labawi 5y agoIn what way does Intel offer more than a proportionate (large) number of small companies? Note, I'm not claiming it is unfair - small and crafty companies often get benefits as well - mostly the middle size and honest ones gets shafted.
- int3 5y agoTechnological expertise from decades of running & improving an extremely complex manufacturing process?
- xiphias2 5y agoI would rather have TSMC open a chip plant in Europe if it's a big company, they are far superior, and already the biggest customer of ASML.
- jakopo87 5y agoBetter both, to avoid having a single supplier.
- hulitu 5y agoYes. They can offer not to pay taxes in europe like other american companies.
- throwaway4good 5y agoCan’t we just put an export ban on asml?
- shoo 5y agofun idea. Does asml have any customers in Europe?
- throwaway4good 5y agoSure. Not as many ... but that can change.