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>I'm not entirely sure I want Chrome anywhere near my phone There are more browsers that use Chromium engine and nobody forces you to install Google version. I

>I'm not entirely sure I want Chrome anywhere near my phone There are more browsers that use Chromium engine and nobody forces you to install Google version. I understand the potential issue of a Chrome dominance but Apple could listen for actual developers want and implement those features then you will no longer be forced to use an inferior browser.

dmitriid 6y ago
> but Apple could listen for actual developers want and implement those features Did you even visit the link? Developers may want the moon. And yet both Mozilla and Apple consider those (and not only those) harmful for a bunch of reasons, the primary of which is privacy.
- simion314 6y ago
  Apple could be smart and implement what real developers need and not what advertisers want. But good performance, and better APIs would mean you could avoid using native apps.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    Once again: real developers may want a lot of things. I've seen developers want bluetooth and location APIs in the browser. And yet, both Apple and Mozilla (note: not just Apple) consider these APIs harmful as currently presented and specified and haven't found/can't find a way to implement them in a non-harmful way. And these APIs are the most visible. There are many other APIs and features that don't make their way into WebKit not because Apple "doesn't listen to real developers", but because the specs are extremely poorly written, or contain known bugs, or can't be implemented efficiently, or... The scary thing is, these days Firefox devs are increasingly often on WebKit's side (because whatever your opinion of Apple is, WebKit devs want the same thing that Firefox devs want: a safer web web for people with properly implemented features). Whereas Chrome just plows through (because Google's raison d'etre is the Web, and Google wants to subsume and replace the web with all things Google).
    - simion314 6y ago
      >and Google wants to subsume and replace the web with all things Google and Apple wants that web apps can't compete with native apps, like Apple will make sure a web based streaming app will not be usable. Why location API is not good in browser but microphone and camera is fine?
      - dmitriid 6y ago
        > and Apple wants that I love how you keep bashing Apple even if Mozilla fully agrees with Apple on this. Because only Apple bad, bad, bad. > Why location API is not good in browser but microphone and camera is fine? Just as camera and mic location access is hidden behind a specific permission dialog in case you didn't notice. For things like Bluetooth, HID, Serial API etc. both WebKit and Firefox (not just Apple, but both Apple and Mozilla) say that this is not enough. Moreover, things like HID that Google happily shipped? Well, that specification is so bad that Mozilla devs didn't even understand it: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#issuecomment-753864467 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is... Or look, Idle Detection API, currently in trial in Chrome. Firefox just openly says: "WebKit raised issues, we agree with them, here's the issues" https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/453 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/453 You will also find (if you only cared about this) that standards that Mozilla considers harmful (or at least thinks they have to be deferred) are mostly aligned with Apple's: https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ But yeah. Only Apple bad.
        simion314 6y ago
        >Just as camera and mic location access is hidden behind a specific permission dialog in case you didn't notice. Of course I know, the hypocrisy is that you trust your grandma with the camera permissions but not with a permission for a music player to run when the screen is turned off or with a map/fitness tracking page to get access to your location. If Apple devs would be competent they could implement it in a secure way like the camera API (or maybe the devs are competent and the reasons not to do it are financial) Dude, Safari is worse then Firefox, stop showing the USB example. Anyway screw this, Microsoft was foprced to show a browser choice screen and Apple will be forced to show the same, it will take a few years but tit will happen. If you are not in EU you will not be affected at all. Since US will still use the inferior browser still all websites will have to code for it and native apps will have to be made to workaround the limitations.

dmitriid 6y ago

> but Apple could listen for actual developers want and implement those features Did you even visit the link? Developers may want the moon. And yet both Mozilla and Apple consider those (and not only those) harmful for a bunch of reasons, the primary of which is privacy.

simion314 6y ago
Apple could be smart and implement what real developers need and not what advertisers want. But good performance, and better APIs would mean you could avoid using native apps.
- dmitriid 6y ago
  Once again: real developers may want a lot of things. I've seen developers want bluetooth and location APIs in the browser. And yet, both Apple and Mozilla (note: not just Apple) consider these APIs harmful as currently presented and specified and haven't found/can't find a way to implement them in a non-harmful way. And these APIs are the most visible. There are many other APIs and features that don't make their way into WebKit not because Apple "doesn't listen to real developers", but because the specs are extremely poorly written, or contain known bugs, or can't be implemented efficiently, or... The scary thing is, these days Firefox devs are increasingly often on WebKit's side (because whatever your opinion of Apple is, WebKit devs want the same thing that Firefox devs want: a safer web web for people with properly implemented features). Whereas Chrome just plows through (because Google's raison d'etre is the Web, and Google wants to subsume and replace the web with all things Google).
  - simion314 6y ago
    >and Google wants to subsume and replace the web with all things Google and Apple wants that web apps can't compete with native apps, like Apple will make sure a web based streaming app will not be usable. Why location API is not good in browser but microphone and camera is fine?
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      > and Apple wants that I love how you keep bashing Apple even if Mozilla fully agrees with Apple on this. Because only Apple bad, bad, bad. > Why location API is not good in browser but microphone and camera is fine? Just as camera and mic location access is hidden behind a specific permission dialog in case you didn't notice. For things like Bluetooth, HID, Serial API etc. both WebKit and Firefox (not just Apple, but both Apple and Mozilla) say that this is not enough. Moreover, things like HID that Google happily shipped? Well, that specification is so bad that Mozilla devs didn't even understand it: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#issuecomment-753864467 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is... Or look, Idle Detection API, currently in trial in Chrome. Firefox just openly says: "WebKit raised issues, we agree with them, here's the issues" https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/453 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/453 You will also find (if you only cared about this) that standards that Mozilla considers harmful (or at least thinks they have to be deferred) are mostly aligned with Apple's: https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ But yeah. Only Apple bad.
      - simion314 6y ago
        >Just as camera and mic location access is hidden behind a specific permission dialog in case you didn't notice. Of course I know, the hypocrisy is that you trust your grandma with the camera permissions but not with a permission for a music player to run when the screen is turned off or with a map/fitness tracking page to get access to your location. If Apple devs would be competent they could implement it in a secure way like the camera API (or maybe the devs are competent and the reasons not to do it are financial) Dude, Safari is worse then Firefox, stop showing the USB example. Anyway screw this, Microsoft was foprced to show a browser choice screen and Apple will be forced to show the same, it will take a few years but tit will happen. If you are not in EU you will not be affected at all. Since US will still use the inferior browser still all websites will have to code for it and native apps will have to be made to workaround the limitations.