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I don’t understand why people say it’s a general computing device. It’s clearly not nor has it been advertised as such. If it actually was a general computing

I don’t understand why people say it’s a general computing device. It’s clearly not nor has it been advertised as such. If it actually was a general computing device you could just install an entirely different operating system onto it. If Apple allowed users to install Android on iPhones but didn’t change iOS would that be an acceptable solution? If so, what’s stopping someone from just getting an Android device now? If not- doesn’t Android already fix all of the issues you’re describing?

m4rtink 6y ago
That's the whole issue - it is a general purpose computing device but Apple is trying to prevent users from using it as such for their selfish reasons. Not only is that anticompetitive, it's also dangerous (state actors can and do apply pressure on them to censor dissenting apps as Apple is the the single gatekeeper) and wasteful (you can't easily repurchase older unsupported devices due to the artificial limits inserted by Apple in what they can boot).
- endisneigh 6y ago
  But it’s not though, that’s just your opinion - is anything with a PCB a general computing device? In any case I’d love if all things with any computing functionality be made completely open. Fridges, TVs, microwaves - etc
  - saurik 6y ago
    We classify a general purpose computing device from the perspective of what a user can do with it: if you can word process AND watch movies AND play games AND read books AND schedule appointments AND message people... well, that's not a "special purpose" device, it is "general purpose". Apple absolutely has made a general purpose computing device, and people buy it with that intent (the lawyer of the special district I am elected to the board of seems to literally have an iPad as his only computer).
    - endisneigh 6y ago
      Yes, it’s general with respect to the functionality available - that doesn’t mean you can do anything. Do you disagree? I don't understand how people can be shocked when Apple says their devices do A, B, C and D, but people complain and want government action so the devices do E.
      - LegitShady 6y ago
        The apple device does A, B, C, D, and E - but it requires you give apple a percentage of your revenue and not let you take money off app or they remove it. It's a general computing device as long as you pay apple's exploitative fees.
- breakfastduck 6y ago
  A device having the capacity in raw computing power to be a general purpose computing device does not make it one. Nor does you wanting it to beone. I'm growing really frustrated with the attempts to force Apple via law to turn my 0 maintenance iPhone into another computer I've got to bloody manage.
  - josephcsible 6y ago
    Nobody's trying to force you to manage your iPhone. All we want changed is to have the choice to manage ours if we want to.
    - endisneigh 6y ago
      The inevitable problem is that fragmentation will occur. I'm curious, why not just get an Android phone?
    - minhazm 6y ago
      I don't understand this logic. You go into buying an iPhone knowing all of the restrictions they place on it. Why would you buy it and then complain about the restrictions? Just don't buy it in the first place. You can buy one of the dozens of other cell phones on the market with an OS that's more open.
      - colinmhayes 6y ago
        I need an iPhone because of iMessage. All my friends use normal messaging, and without iMessage texting is impossibly slow. I've tried to get them to switch to WhatsApp but they refuse. It's a big enough deal that I'm willing to look past all of iOS's bullshit. But I'm not happy about it.
saurik 6y ago
Most Android devices--and certainly all the good ones--are almost as locked down as iOS: Android has a bit more extensibility points, and sideloading has fewer restrictions, but it isn't like an Android device is some open "run anything you want" playing field (hell: the original Android G1 needed a jailbreak!!); and, really, if you analyze that market carefully, Samsung pretty much owns it with like 95% of the profit made across all vendors (and they have extra locked down devices).
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  That's why Google and Samsung need to be sued in a similar fashion, too.
  - saurik 6y ago
    Agree. FWIW, in Epic's battle, they also chose to sue Google; we just don't hear as much about the case.
- josephcsible 6y ago
  Do you think Pixels are locked down, or do you not consider them "good ones"?
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  The only thing between you and infinite control on most Android devices, including pixels, is repeatedly tapping the About entry in the menu.
  - saurik 6y ago
    Huh?... developer mode on an Android device doesn't even give you root access (which isn't that powerful these days due to SELinux), much less "infinite control": if you want to modify the lock screen or how notifications work or any other myriad things that Android doesn't provide extensibility points for, you need to jailbreak your device, just as you would for iOS. Some devices provide the ability to do an official "bootloader unlock", which actually gives you real control, but the vast majority do not. (aside) The lack of basic understanding of how all of these restrictions work is so annoyingly pervasive that I have seriously been in arguments with people at conferences who are adamant about how open these Android devices are, and then when I challenge them what device they have they have a jailbroken Samsung on Verizon (the worst combo) and I have to walk them down memory lane to remind them of what exploit they must have downloaded (as I used to know most of the key players; I've taken a step back from the DEFCON scene, though, as the toxicity was getting to me).
Apocryphon 6y ago
Apple plainly does so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI-iJcC9JUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI-iJcC9JUc

m4rtink 6y ago

That's the whole issue - it is a general purpose computing device but Apple is trying to prevent users from using it as such for their selfish reasons. Not only is that anticompetitive, it's also dangerous (state actors can and do apply pressure on them to censor dissenting apps as Apple is the the single gatekeeper) and wasteful (you can't easily repurchase older unsupported devices due to the artificial limits inserted by Apple in what they can boot).

endisneigh 6y ago
But it’s not though, that’s just your opinion - is anything with a PCB a general computing device? In any case I’d love if all things with any computing functionality be made completely open. Fridges, TVs, microwaves - etc
- saurik 6y ago
  We classify a general purpose computing device from the perspective of what a user can do with it: if you can word process AND watch movies AND play games AND read books AND schedule appointments AND message people... well, that's not a "special purpose" device, it is "general purpose". Apple absolutely has made a general purpose computing device, and people buy it with that intent (the lawyer of the special district I am elected to the board of seems to literally have an iPad as his only computer).
  - endisneigh 6y ago
    Yes, it’s general with respect to the functionality available - that doesn’t mean you can do anything. Do you disagree? I don't understand how people can be shocked when Apple says their devices do A, B, C and D, but people complain and want government action so the devices do E.
    - LegitShady 6y ago
      The apple device does A, B, C, D, and E - but it requires you give apple a percentage of your revenue and not let you take money off app or they remove it. It's a general computing device as long as you pay apple's exploitative fees.
breakfastduck 6y ago
A device having the capacity in raw computing power to be a general purpose computing device does not make it one. Nor does you wanting it to beone. I'm growing really frustrated with the attempts to force Apple via law to turn my 0 maintenance iPhone into another computer I've got to bloody manage.
- josephcsible 6y ago
  Nobody's trying to force you to manage your iPhone. All we want changed is to have the choice to manage ours if we want to.
  - endisneigh 6y ago
    The inevitable problem is that fragmentation will occur. I'm curious, why not just get an Android phone?
  - minhazm 6y ago
    I don't understand this logic. You go into buying an iPhone knowing all of the restrictions they place on it. Why would you buy it and then complain about the restrictions? Just don't buy it in the first place. You can buy one of the dozens of other cell phones on the market with an OS that's more open.
    - colinmhayes 6y ago
      I need an iPhone because of iMessage. All my friends use normal messaging, and without iMessage texting is impossibly slow. I've tried to get them to switch to WhatsApp but they refuse. It's a big enough deal that I'm willing to look past all of iOS's bullshit. But I'm not happy about it.

saurik 6y ago

Most Android devices--and certainly all the good ones--are almost as locked down as iOS: Android has a bit more extensibility points, and sideloading has fewer restrictions, but it isn't like an Android device is some open "run anything you want" playing field (hell: the original Android G1 needed a jailbreak!!); and, really, if you analyze that market carefully, Samsung pretty much owns it with like 95% of the profit made across all vendors (and they have extra locked down devices).

perryizgr8 6y ago
That's why Google and Samsung need to be sued in a similar fashion, too.
- saurik 6y ago
  Agree. FWIW, in Epic's battle, they also chose to sue Google; we just don't hear as much about the case.
josephcsible 6y ago
Do you think Pixels are locked down, or do you not consider them "good ones"?
vorpalhex 6y ago
The only thing between you and infinite control on most Android devices, including pixels, is repeatedly tapping the About entry in the menu.
- saurik 6y ago
  Huh?... developer mode on an Android device doesn't even give you root access (which isn't that powerful these days due to SELinux), much less "infinite control": if you want to modify the lock screen or how notifications work or any other myriad things that Android doesn't provide extensibility points for, you need to jailbreak your device, just as you would for iOS. Some devices provide the ability to do an official "bootloader unlock", which actually gives you real control, but the vast majority do not. (aside) The lack of basic understanding of how all of these restrictions work is so annoyingly pervasive that I have seriously been in arguments with people at conferences who are adamant about how open these Android devices are, and then when I challenge them what device they have they have a jailbroken Samsung on Verizon (the worst combo) and I have to walk them down memory lane to remind them of what exploit they must have downloaded (as I used to know most of the key players; I've taken a step back from the DEFCON scene, though, as the toxicity was getting to me).

Apocryphon 6y ago

Apple plainly does so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI-iJcC9JUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI-iJcC9JUc