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I personally don’t get it. iOS is a choice. Android is a choice. Neither is a choice. Back in the day, we had Palm, Blackberry, Windows Mobile among others to

I personally don’t get it. iOS is a choice. Android is a choice. Neither is a choice. Back in the day, we had Palm, Blackberry, Windows Mobile among others to choose from. The decisions made by the respective companies affected adoption and now we’re left with Android and iOS for now. People compare phone choice to things like electricity and water which makes no sense. Let’s ignore Apple and Google specifically here. Is the argument that all platforms should accommodate all users and use cases for free? Is the argument that companies should have a gap on profit margins? Do we really want the government involved in all minutiae? Can’t we just vote with our wallet. The top 1000 app developers could just figure something out and move to a new platform if the money issues are too much no? I’m happy to have a discussion on this with anyone who replies.

chipgap98 6y ago
A. This market is a duopoly so there is limited opportunity to vote with your wallet. B. Neither is not really a choice for most people. C. It is one thing if Apple wants to charge a percentage of revenue to use their app store. But they have made it against the rules to: allow side loading, allow alternative app stores, link to a web payment option in one of their apps, and even to mention that they charge 30% of the revenue for in app purchases. That is clearly anti competitive.
- endisneigh 6y ago
  > A. This market is a duopoly so there is limited opportunity to vote with your wallet. This was not always the case. What’s stopping a competitor from defeating both Apple and Google? Windows Mobile had a peak market share of about 42%, higher than what Apple has in the EU. My response to B is the same to A. Regarding C what is an acceptable percentage - how did you come up with that number? Apple has been pretty transparent about the rules - why buy if you don’t like?
  - ahiknsr 6y ago
    > Apple has been pretty transparent about the rules I disagree. Apple doesn't let App developers to inform users about the 30% tax. How is that transparent?
    - endisneigh 6y ago
      It does, though https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-store-small-business-program/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-s... It’s not a secret at all, lol.
      - ahiknsr 6y ago
        No. "Apple blocked Facebook from informing users that Apple would collect 30 percent of in-app purchases made through a planned new feature, Facebook tells Reuters. Apple said the update violated an App Store rule that doesn’t let developers show “irrelevant” information to users" https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/28/21405140/apple-rejects-facebook-update-30-percent-cut https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/28/21405140/apple-rejects-fa...
        endisneigh 6y ago
        That’s a related, but separate issue. My point is that app developers know about the fees. Apple doesn’t hide them. The issue you’re describing is more of whether Apple should allow App Store developers display messages to the end user of their apps saying that Apple is skimming off the top. Similar to how it would be if Apple said Visa will take 2% or whatever.
        simion314 6y ago
        That makes sense for Apple but not for the Apple users, users pay more so users lose and Apple wins, this shit does not fly in other countries. For example for currency exchanges we had laws(in Romania) that you have to print in giant fonts all the fees/taxes. The law was created because the giant text was showing some values and the fees were hidden or printed in small fonts somewhere unreadable. IMO aa country could force Apple to print on their iPHone boxes something like (30% of your subscriptions or Farmwill gems go to Apple, buyer be aware that you can probably buy the subscriptions cheaper on the developer website but Apple won't allow them to show you the link because they are greedy)
  - KptMarchewa 6y ago
    42%? Was that on some random small market? Globally it peaked at 4%: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste...
    - endisneigh 6y ago
      https://bgr.com/general/apple-and-google-dominate-smartphone-space-while-other-vendors-scramble-116194/ https://bgr.com/general/apple-and-google-dominate-smartphone...
tmotwu 6y ago
I used to think it was fair. Then I learned that Apple provides exceptions only to some Apps through some sketchy backroom process. [1] Apps that don't directly compete with their products. Enough exceptions to popular apps to minimize push back. If Apple applied this tax universally, with universal acceptance, then it would be a fair "users vote with their wallet" situation. Because a majority of popular apps would immediately refuse their changes and collectively remove themselves from their platform. Then we can decidedly vote with our wallets. [1] https://9to5mac.com/2020/09/02/developers-highlight-more-anomalies-in-apples-30-cut/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/09/02/developers-highlight-more-ano...
- endisneigh 6y ago
  I agree completely that there should be no exceptions.
simion314 6y ago
This would be correct only in a actual free market, now you have 2 players that split the market equally and are smart enough to know how to win in the prisoner dilemma game.

chipgap98 6y ago

A. This market is a duopoly so there is limited opportunity to vote with your wallet. B. Neither is not really a choice for most people. C. It is one thing if Apple wants to charge a percentage of revenue to use their app store. But they have made it against the rules to: allow side loading, allow alternative app stores, link to a web payment option in one of their apps, and even to mention that they charge 30% of the revenue for in app purchases. That is clearly anti competitive.

endisneigh 6y ago
> A. This market is a duopoly so there is limited opportunity to vote with your wallet. This was not always the case. What’s stopping a competitor from defeating both Apple and Google? Windows Mobile had a peak market share of about 42%, higher than what Apple has in the EU. My response to B is the same to A. Regarding C what is an acceptable percentage - how did you come up with that number? Apple has been pretty transparent about the rules - why buy if you don’t like?
- ahiknsr 6y ago
  > Apple has been pretty transparent about the rules I disagree. Apple doesn't let App developers to inform users about the 30% tax. How is that transparent?
  - endisneigh 6y ago
    It does, though https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-store-small-business-program/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-s... It’s not a secret at all, lol.
    - ahiknsr 6y ago
      No. "Apple blocked Facebook from informing users that Apple would collect 30 percent of in-app purchases made through a planned new feature, Facebook tells Reuters. Apple said the update violated an App Store rule that doesn’t let developers show “irrelevant” information to users" https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/28/21405140/apple-rejects-facebook-update-30-percent-cut https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/28/21405140/apple-rejects-fa...
      - endisneigh 6y ago
        That’s a related, but separate issue. My point is that app developers know about the fees. Apple doesn’t hide them. The issue you’re describing is more of whether Apple should allow App Store developers display messages to the end user of their apps saying that Apple is skimming off the top. Similar to how it would be if Apple said Visa will take 2% or whatever.
        simion314 6y ago
        That makes sense for Apple but not for the Apple users, users pay more so users lose and Apple wins, this shit does not fly in other countries. For example for currency exchanges we had laws(in Romania) that you have to print in giant fonts all the fees/taxes. The law was created because the giant text was showing some values and the fees were hidden or printed in small fonts somewhere unreadable. IMO aa country could force Apple to print on their iPHone boxes something like (30% of your subscriptions or Farmwill gems go to Apple, buyer be aware that you can probably buy the subscriptions cheaper on the developer website but Apple won't allow them to show you the link because they are greedy)
- KptMarchewa 6y ago
  42%? Was that on some random small market? Globally it peaked at 4%: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste...
  - endisneigh 6y ago
    https://bgr.com/general/apple-and-google-dominate-smartphone-space-while-other-vendors-scramble-116194/ https://bgr.com/general/apple-and-google-dominate-smartphone...

tmotwu 6y ago

I used to think it was fair. Then I learned that Apple provides exceptions only to some Apps through some sketchy backroom process. [1] Apps that don't directly compete with their products. Enough exceptions to popular apps to minimize push back. If Apple applied this tax universally, with universal acceptance, then it would be a fair "users vote with their wallet" situation. Because a majority of popular apps would immediately refuse their changes and collectively remove themselves from their platform. Then we can decidedly vote with our wallets. [1] https://9to5mac.com/2020/09/02/developers-highlight-more-anomalies-in-apples-30-cut/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/09/02/developers-highlight-more-ano...

endisneigh 6y ago
I agree completely that there should be no exceptions.

simion314 6y ago

This would be correct only in a actual free market, now you have 2 players that split the market equally and are smart enough to know how to win in the prisoner dilemma game.