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> Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! 1. No, this is limited to the AppStore,

> Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! 1. No, this is limited to the AppStore, those businesses can operate elsewhere. 2. What's the alternative? How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain?

zibzab 5y ago
Well, Apple has created a bunch of rules to address #1. For example, you cannot sell the same goods outside the store with a 30% discount.
deergomoo 5y ago
> How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? I’m sure many businesses would be perfectly happy to have no access whatsoever to the platform Apple built and maintain (platform meaning the App Store in this context), but if they want to ship on iOS (which is where all the money is), they have no choice.
- FredPret 5y ago
  So Apple is providing these businesses with a platform that has captured hundreds of millions of high-income users. That’s incredibly valuable
  - deergomoo 5y ago
    Indeed, which is why they took $48bn in revenue for iPhone sales this quarter. Their argument that they are responsible for Spotify’s iPhone-originating revenue to the tune of a 30% cut is a complete farce. If the iPhone didn’t have third party apps, no-one would buy them.
simion314 5y ago
>What's the alternative? How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? Maybe look at OSX ? Why can Apple be happy with OK with one but not the other? If you want to imply that phones are not computers then tablets are not phones and more like computers, so we all know that if it OSX was created today would be locked.
Griffinsauce 5y ago
> 1. No, this is limited to the AppStore, those businesses can operate elsewhere. Defining "elsewhere" is important here. They cannot operate on the same platform through alternative installation methods or the web (considering how Apple limits PWAs to be dead in the water). They also cannot reach these users through other platforms because of the immense lock in that Apple builds up intentionally. [1] So they can operate "elsewhere" but they cannot reach those consumers. They are owned by Apple. Regardless of how you feel about the legalities or how much freedom you think a company should have, that is obviously bad for competition and consumers. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375128/apple-imessage-android-ecosystem-lock-in-epic-games-filings-app-store-dispute#comments https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375128/apple-imessage-an...
Mindwipe 5y ago
> How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? Because we have a regulatory system designed to ensure that happens as capitalism doesn't really function if you don't. Also "platform" is bullshit. By "platform" we mean "Apple used it's control of the hardware to force control of all software on an unprecedented level so they could rent seek." There is no right to a "platform" here. Apple run an app store. People should be free to chose to use it or not, but they're not because Apple abuse their position as hardware manufacturer. That isn't a platform.
- tedd4u 5y ago
  Why should people be forced to use Honda engines with Honda cars? Honda ONLY offers Honda engines, not any other manufacturer. The are abusing their control of the integrated car to force control of the drive system and engine. People should be free to choose to use Honda engines or not. Apple created an integrated product that billions of people prefer. I don’t think it’s for us to arbitrarily tell Apple which parts of their product have to be split into different categories we arbitrarily define for them.
  - celsoazevedo 5y ago
    You can replace that Honda engine with a different one (at your own risk) if that's what you want. Honda also doesn't force everyone to give them 30 or 15% of engine oil or washer fluid sales. The only way to install an app on an iPhone is via Apple's store. You can't download it from the dev's website and install it. You also can't use a different app store because Apple doesn't let you. And you also can't buy something on an app (eg: a subscription) without using Apple's payment system or even link to a donation page (why?). You can have a well integrated product and still give users and developers some freedom. For example, Android phones usually come with Google's Play Store, which is what the vast majority of users use. It's no different from Apple and the App Store. Then, optionally, you can download the apk (the .dmg or .exe equivalent) from the dev's website and install it. You can also install a different app store, if that's what you want (almost no one does it, but the option is there). Apps are still only allowed to do what the OS let's them do (eg: you still need to give them permission to access your location, camera, etc), so you're only missing the privacy given by the review process. And when it comes to payments, you can use Google's payment system or something else. Not very different from what happens on your computer. Some people say this is terrible because then Facebook can create their store to bypass Google's rules. In practice, Facebook knows most users won't sideload apps or install a different app store, so they follow Google's rules like everyone else.
flumpcakes 5y ago
> How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? I see the argument all the time - I don't think it's really in good faith. You could argue that it was in fact the app developers who built the platform. For the _average_ iPhone or Android user, how much time is spent in the default apps outside of core phone functionality (making calls, reading/sending sms)? I would assume most people spend time in 3rd party applications like WhatsApp, Facebook, Spotify, etc. The "killer app" of the iPhone isn't apple - it's the tens of thousands of 3rd party developers. If all 3rd party developers stopped developing for iOS then the iPhone would be a dead platform.
realusername 5y ago
> How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? Since smartphones became essential to a functioning modern economy. And it's not about prices, Apple is free to setup any price they want but they should have a choice to publish their app on their website without Apple if they want to.

zibzab 5y ago

Well, Apple has created a bunch of rules to address #1. For example, you cannot sell the same goods outside the store with a 30% discount.

deergomoo 5y ago

> How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? I’m sure many businesses would be perfectly happy to have no access whatsoever to the platform Apple built and maintain (platform meaning the App Store in this context), but if they want to ship on iOS (which is where all the money is), they have no choice.

FredPret 5y ago
So Apple is providing these businesses with a platform that has captured hundreds of millions of high-income users. That’s incredibly valuable
- deergomoo 5y ago
  Indeed, which is why they took $48bn in revenue for iPhone sales this quarter. Their argument that they are responsible for Spotify’s iPhone-originating revenue to the tune of a 30% cut is a complete farce. If the iPhone didn’t have third party apps, no-one would buy them.

simion314 5y ago

>What's the alternative? How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? Maybe look at OSX ? Why can Apple be happy with OK with one but not the other? If you want to imply that phones are not computers then tablets are not phones and more like computers, so we all know that if it OSX was created today would be locked.

Griffinsauce 5y ago

> 1. No, this is limited to the AppStore, those businesses can operate elsewhere. Defining "elsewhere" is important here. They cannot operate on the same platform through alternative installation methods or the web (considering how Apple limits PWAs to be dead in the water). They also cannot reach these users through other platforms because of the immense lock in that Apple builds up intentionally. [1] So they can operate "elsewhere" but they cannot reach those consumers. They are owned by Apple. Regardless of how you feel about the legalities or how much freedom you think a company should have, that is obviously bad for competition and consumers. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375128/apple-imessage-android-ecosystem-lock-in-epic-games-filings-app-store-dispute#comments https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375128/apple-imessage-an...

Mindwipe 5y ago

> How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? Because we have a regulatory system designed to ensure that happens as capitalism doesn't really function if you don't. Also "platform" is bullshit. By "platform" we mean "Apple used it's control of the hardware to force control of all software on an unprecedented level so they could rent seek." There is no right to a "platform" here. Apple run an app store. People should be free to chose to use it or not, but they're not because Apple abuse their position as hardware manufacturer. That isn't a platform.

tedd4u 5y ago
Why should people be forced to use Honda engines with Honda cars? Honda ONLY offers Honda engines, not any other manufacturer. The are abusing their control of the integrated car to force control of the drive system and engine. People should be free to choose to use Honda engines or not. Apple created an integrated product that billions of people prefer. I don’t think it’s for us to arbitrarily tell Apple which parts of their product have to be split into different categories we arbitrarily define for them.
- celsoazevedo 5y ago
  You can replace that Honda engine with a different one (at your own risk) if that's what you want. Honda also doesn't force everyone to give them 30 or 15% of engine oil or washer fluid sales. The only way to install an app on an iPhone is via Apple's store. You can't download it from the dev's website and install it. You also can't use a different app store because Apple doesn't let you. And you also can't buy something on an app (eg: a subscription) without using Apple's payment system or even link to a donation page (why?). You can have a well integrated product and still give users and developers some freedom. For example, Android phones usually come with Google's Play Store, which is what the vast majority of users use. It's no different from Apple and the App Store. Then, optionally, you can download the apk (the .dmg or .exe equivalent) from the dev's website and install it. You can also install a different app store, if that's what you want (almost no one does it, but the option is there). Apps are still only allowed to do what the OS let's them do (eg: you still need to give them permission to access your location, camera, etc), so you're only missing the privacy given by the review process. And when it comes to payments, you can use Google's payment system or something else. Not very different from what happens on your computer. Some people say this is terrible because then Facebook can create their store to bypass Google's rules. In practice, Facebook knows most users won't sideload apps or install a different app store, so they follow Google's rules like everyone else.

flumpcakes 5y ago

> How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? I see the argument all the time - I don't think it's really in good faith. You could argue that it was in fact the app developers who built the platform. For the _average_ iPhone or Android user, how much time is spent in the default apps outside of core phone functionality (making calls, reading/sending sms)? I would assume most people spend time in 3rd party applications like WhatsApp, Facebook, Spotify, etc. The "killer app" of the iPhone isn't apple - it's the tens of thousands of 3rd party developers. If all 3rd party developers stopped developing for iOS then the iPhone would be a dead platform.

realusername 5y ago

> How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? Since smartphones became essential to a functioning modern economy. And it's not about prices, Apple is free to setup any price they want but they should have a choice to publish their app on their website without Apple if they want to.