9 ms·

I honestly don't understand the fascination with keyboards. For as long as I can remember, I've always used the cheapest keyboard I can find on Amazon, usually

I honestly don't understand the fascination with keyboards. For as long as I can remember, I've always used the cheapest keyboard I can find on Amazon, usually around $10. I've written software, books and movies on shitty keyboards. What's a fancy keyboard supposed to give me? Much like the quality of a photographer is quite independent of their camera (in fact, the easiest way to insult a photographer is to tell them "wow, what a beautiful picture, what camera do you have?" ), I don't see how a keyboard can make any difference in the quality of the stuff I make. What am I missing?

hrnnnnnn 5y ago
It's about ergonomics. To me, a mechanical keyboard is more comfortable to type on. I actually chose the camera I use for a similar reason. It doesn't have the fanciest electronics, but it has all the important controls on physical dials which make it more pleasant to use.
Veen 5y ago
I enjoy typing on a mechanical keyboard. It's a pleasant tactile experience. That's all. No big performance or cognititive benefit, but why does there need be? It's the same reason I have a plant on my desk. I like to look at it. It doesn't make me smarter, but that doesn't mean watering it is a waste of time.
nomand 5y ago
The thing you touch and interact with every day, better be beautiful and bring you joy, whether through aesthetics, tactile feel, personalized function, or whatever else, hencewhy "custom" is the keyword here. Nothing to do with quality of your typing or the work. You don't opt out for the cheapest possible decor because it "does the job", your environment affects the way you feel and this is just one ways to express one's own.
kohlerm 5y ago
There several reasons, some of them make logical sense, others don't ;-) Some people for example try to optimize ergonomics/efficiency. There is in my experience a lot of overlap with people liking mechanical keyboards (and if it is only for the feel of them ) and people trying to optimize keyboard layouts by using some advanced firmware such as https://docs.qmk.fm https://docs.qmk.fm.
edpichler 5y ago
It's special because it's the main output interface between your mind and the network. You spend many days of your life on this device. It doesn't need to be cheap, for the same reason that the shoes of the professional football player does not need to be cheap, he could also score with bare foot.
Uberphallus 5y ago
No offense, but, do you touch type? It will depend on the switch, but personally on cherry blues and browns I can type while looking away from the keyboard (or screen) with basically 0 typos. On cheap keyboards either I type harder (and slower) on purpose to be sure or I just miss keystrokes randomly. I can get by with a rubber dome keyboard by if I just write comments like this one, or light office work, where I see immediately what I type, but certain tasks don't have visual feedback (or you just look elsewhere). In my case, using Vim in normal mode (command chains aren't usually seen until they execute), taking notes off meetings/presentations, doing translation work, adapting code snippets from elsewhere, and refactoring code benefit greatly from touch typing.
- approxim8ion 5y ago
  Not OP, but I do touch-type fairly accurately at around 85-95wpm, even on cheapo keyboards. I don't like it, but mechs are hard to find and expensive where I am.
  - input_sh 5y ago
    > but mechs are hard to find and expensive where I am. Same, but you might want to look into "gamer keyboards", those are usually easier to find. I ended up buying one of those from Razer (this one: https://www.razer.com/gaming-keyboards/Razer-Huntsman-Tournament-Edition/RZ03-03080200-R3U1 https://www.razer.com/gaming-keyboards/Razer-Huntsman-Tourna...) that serves the purpose just fine and I can't say I have any complaints. (Though I obviously have no point of reference on how it compares with other mechanical keyboards.) Pretty sure I could shave off $50 of the price of a new one and resell it to some teenager if I ever wanted to.
uzakov 5y ago
One of the reasons people might spend time on keyboards is health ie to combat the carpal tunner syndrom.
lolive 5y ago
Remapping your keys (with .Xmodmap or Autohotkey) is imho a must-have. Doing that at hardware level with QMK sounds a pretty good alternative.
taneq 5y ago
A nice mechanical keyboard is nice, especially to touch type on. It's only going to improve your writing in the sense that you'll be in a better headspace when you write because you're using a nice keyboard, but then how many hours a day do you spend typing? Is it not worth spending them typing on something you actually enjoy using? The quality of a photographer may be independent of their camera but I guarantee professional photographers don't use cheap shitty cameras. Edit: Tradition dictates a car analogy, so - when I bought my first car I couldn't understand why people thought disk brakes were better. I mean, you can lock the wheels with drum brakes so they're equivalent, right? Then when I got my second car with all-round disk brakes I was retrospectively horrified that I'd ever trusted my first car's brakes with anything. Of course, a year later when I was more confident and started testing the limits of my second car, I found out the difference between disk brakes and racing brakes...
jonathanstrange 5y ago
Generally speaking (there are always exceptions), mechanical keyboards are one of those things that you cannot live without any more once you use them. Before that, it's hard to see a point, but going back from a good mechanical to a mushy keyboard is hard. Typing is just more fun on them. It's similar to having a favorite coffee mug for drinking coffee.
chevill 5y ago
>What's a fancy keyboard supposed to give me? If you want a standard keyboard with a standard layout or something similar, a cheap rubber dome keyboard is going to work just as well as my $600 keyboard. If that's the type of keyboard you want, the reason people like them is because they think they sound nicer, feel nicer, and in many cases look nicer. They also have better built quality and people appreciate well-built things. However, there are also situations where people are getting tangible benefits from mechanical keyboards. Some people don't have much desk space, so you can get a smaller keyboard and save room. It also makes them more portable if you feel like taking it with you. Another tangible benefit is programmability and the use of layers. Some people work faster and more efficiently with a smaller keyboard with multiple layers. Another reason to use layers is for different use cases. I can have one layer programmed with a bunch of hotkeys for Photoshop, another layer for just normal typing/computer use, and another layer setup for gaming. Another thing to consider is ergonomics. I 3d printed a case for a Dactyl Manuform and hand-wired my own customized, split ergonomic keyboard. After switching to it, the tendonitis in my wrist cleared up. So, there is value to be found. However a lot of the people that want mechanical keyboards just want something that feels like it is a quality device. If that's what you're looking for, you can get something that will likely be the nicest keyboard you've ever used for $200 or less. Once you get to the $500+ mark for an entire build, you are venturing into the territory where its more of a fashion accessory. People want cases made by certain designers and while in some cases they have better features or are machined to a higher standard, you quickly run into diminishing returns. IMO if someone wants to get into mechanical keyboards, its hard to beat the standard model of GMMK keyboards for the price. You can get it for $60 without switches or keycaps. At that point pay $30-40 for Box Jade switches if you like clicky switches, $70-100 for zeal helios switches if you like smooth linear switches, or $50 for aliaz 70g tactile switches if you like MX browns. After that spend $30-50 on a cheap but decent PBT keycap set. Finally, do about 10 minutes worth of simple modifications to the keyboard and you'll end up with something that gets you 95% of the value you'd get out of a $2000 keyboard at 1/10th of the price. https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform
- mech422 5y ago
  GMMK boards are surprisingly nice for the money... the new 'elite' looks to have taken it up a notch too. I originally got one, as it was hotswap and almost as cheap as a switch tester. But it compares well with say my Ducky.
jeromenerf 5y ago
Nothing a Leica rangefinder would have given you if you were not a photo journalist in the late 50s. A "special" keyboard can offer you a lot if you have an itch to scratch. Typing faster, relieving pain, automating sequences, enjoying the clicks, fast focus in low light, no mirror vibration in low light conditions, compact package, ruggedness... As a side note, photographers are really picky about their gear :)
12ian34 5y ago
Ignorance is bliss - and I genuinely don't mean this in a negative way. I was perfectly happy with my cheap keyboard until I got tempted into a mechanical and now I love it. But it's great to be happy with what you have. Desire can be a source of unhappiness!
squaredisk 5y ago
Monitor size and keyboard are far more important than the process speed in my experience. The bottleneck is never the processor speed or even RAM, but mostly the human working memory and cognitive capacity. Bigger monitor helps the former and good keyboard helps the latter with less typos.
brobdingnagians 5y ago
I have RSI in my wrists; going from the normal average keyboards I'd used my entire life to a mechanical keyboard was like having my fingers slide on butter. It feels a lot better; less impact on my fingers, don't have to bottom out. It is also nice while playing games to get the key to register half way, can jam keys much faster.
goatinaboat 5y ago
I've always used the cheapest keyboard I can find on Amazon, usually around $10. I've written software, books and movies on shitty keyboards. What's a fancy keyboard supposed to give me? I could feel the early onset of what could have become full blown carpal tunnel early in my career; since switching to mechanicals I have had absolutely zero problems. A Cherry keyboard isn't that expensive and will last forever. For me it is a very worthwhile investment in my health and the longevity of my career.
dxdm 5y ago
But what cameras do professional photographers choose, and why?
laichzeit0 5y ago
This is the usual complaint I hear from people that have never used a mechanical keyboard before.
112233 5y ago
Most of these points already have been mentioned (e.g. ergonomics. My hands stopped hurting after switch to kinesis advantage. (but bevare of the so called “ergonomic” keyboards that actually are not)) There is anothe use case for fancy keyboards: a keyboard made for specific application. I you spend most of your work time in ProTools / Resolve / InDesign / expensive CAD, then an extended keyboard makes a lot of sense. A related example is the majority of cash registers: those apple/banana key grids? They are likely a programmable computer keyboard! Those are cheap and not “fancy”, though...
alpaca128 5y ago
> Much like the quality of a photographer is quite independent of their camera And yet you'll have a really hard time finding a professional photographer using a cheap compact camera or their iPad to do their work. Just like you'll rarely see a professional developer writing code in Notepad. I can type just as fast on a standard $10 keyboard as on my custom one. But on mine I can type more accurately, more comfortably for much longer periods, I can change the layout at any time as it's fully programmable, and at the same time it feels nicer. Why would I not use it?
TheRealDunkirk 5y ago
I owned a used, but lovingly cared for, Volvo S80 T60. It was a magical car. The ride, the handling, the power, the comfort, the stereo. Everything about it was better than my current Honda Accord. My wife couldn't tell the difference in any of these things in driving it, or at least didn't care. It's a stretch, but I can imagine that undiscerning people could think a $10 membrane keyboard is fine. Statistics say those people should exist. What I can't understand is why anyone would want to spend even 5 minutes typing on one of those external Mac "magic" keyboards. They are truly terrible. Yet I know multiple people who prefer them over anything else. It just goes to show that you can't account for taste.
- bloopernova 5y ago
  I used to use Mac keyboards because I wanted to minimize the difference in typing feel between using the laptop keyboard and using the external keyboard. I thought I was used to that and would never want to use a mechanical keyboard, because I thought I valued very small "travel" in the keys. I quickly found that I actually really liked both the tactile feel and somewhat low audible click of the Cherry Browns. So I sort of moved from thinking I liked laptop keyboards, and hated mechanical ones, to appreciating the qualities of a good mechanical keyboard. I used a mechanical keyboard (mk for short here on out) for a while after being loaned one by a Mechanical Keyboard Zealot coworker. (he was actually super laid back, and would just lend out keyboards to people :) ) After that I bought a Corsair keyboard because I wanted to get a mk as easily as possible and didn't want to try to decode the mk subreddit. Then that started to "break" (just needed cleaning, whoops, I gave it to my nephew to go with his parents' xmas present of a gaming PC) and I got myself a Ducky mk. I also tried the ErgoDox but was getting frustrated with it during a crunch time at work, and put it aside for the ducky. One day I want to try the split keyboard again.
- llimllib 5y ago
  I'm currently typing on a keychron keyboard that I like well enough to use instead of the magic keyboard, but I'm more accurate and faster on the magic keyboard. As a bonus, the magic keyboard's lower profile means that I don't have to use a wrist rest when I use it, unlike all of my mechanicals, even though I've got the lowest profile available mechanical. They're extremely well engineered keyboards not worthy of your hate.
ben7799 5y ago
It's based on a false belief that the feel of these keyboards actually translates into a better experience and is less damaging on the hands/fingers. There's no proof it's true. It never holds up in studies, and if it was really true these KBs would have stayed mainstream dominant. It's a weird internet subculture, just like lots of other stuff. It's about having something fancy and/or unique and showing it to the world.
cryptos 5y ago
For me it is just more fun to write on a mechanical keyboard. I've never measured it, but I think that I'm writing a bit faster on it. But anyway, there is no other reason for me than that I like the the feeling, the sound and the mechanical quality. It's like drinking good wine.
dxuh 5y ago
On top of all the subjective emotional things, I can clearly see a difference in typing speed and accuracy. I do typing speed test from time to time and it was constant for quite some years, until I got a mech. When I got another (better) mech it got even better still. If you touch type and you are already fast, the tactile feedback of switches really closes up the feedback loop a lot better. Your fingers know you screwed up, before your eyes have to see the mistake. And it's also easier on my hands for some reason, but may have more complex causes.

hrnnnnnn 5y ago

It's about ergonomics. To me, a mechanical keyboard is more comfortable to type on. I actually chose the camera I use for a similar reason. It doesn't have the fanciest electronics, but it has all the important controls on physical dials which make it more pleasant to use.

Veen 5y ago

I enjoy typing on a mechanical keyboard. It's a pleasant tactile experience. That's all. No big performance or cognititive benefit, but why does there need be? It's the same reason I have a plant on my desk. I like to look at it. It doesn't make me smarter, but that doesn't mean watering it is a waste of time.

nomand 5y ago

The thing you touch and interact with every day, better be beautiful and bring you joy, whether through aesthetics, tactile feel, personalized function, or whatever else, hencewhy "custom" is the keyword here. Nothing to do with quality of your typing or the work. You don't opt out for the cheapest possible decor because it "does the job", your environment affects the way you feel and this is just one ways to express one's own.

kohlerm 5y ago

There several reasons, some of them make logical sense, others don't ;-) Some people for example try to optimize ergonomics/efficiency. There is in my experience a lot of overlap with people liking mechanical keyboards (and if it is only for the feel of them ) and people trying to optimize keyboard layouts by using some advanced firmware such as https://docs.qmk.fm https://docs.qmk.fm.

edpichler 5y ago

It's special because it's the main output interface between your mind and the network. You spend many days of your life on this device. It doesn't need to be cheap, for the same reason that the shoes of the professional football player does not need to be cheap, he could also score with bare foot.

Uberphallus 5y ago

No offense, but, do you touch type? It will depend on the switch, but personally on cherry blues and browns I can type while looking away from the keyboard (or screen) with basically 0 typos. On cheap keyboards either I type harder (and slower) on purpose to be sure or I just miss keystrokes randomly. I can get by with a rubber dome keyboard by if I just write comments like this one, or light office work, where I see immediately what I type, but certain tasks don't have visual feedback (or you just look elsewhere). In my case, using Vim in normal mode (command chains aren't usually seen until they execute), taking notes off meetings/presentations, doing translation work, adapting code snippets from elsewhere, and refactoring code benefit greatly from touch typing.

approxim8ion 5y ago
Not OP, but I do touch-type fairly accurately at around 85-95wpm, even on cheapo keyboards. I don't like it, but mechs are hard to find and expensive where I am.
- input_sh 5y ago
  > but mechs are hard to find and expensive where I am. Same, but you might want to look into "gamer keyboards", those are usually easier to find. I ended up buying one of those from Razer (this one: https://www.razer.com/gaming-keyboards/Razer-Huntsman-Tournament-Edition/RZ03-03080200-R3U1 https://www.razer.com/gaming-keyboards/Razer-Huntsman-Tourna...) that serves the purpose just fine and I can't say I have any complaints. (Though I obviously have no point of reference on how it compares with other mechanical keyboards.) Pretty sure I could shave off $50 of the price of a new one and resell it to some teenager if I ever wanted to.

uzakov 5y ago

One of the reasons people might spend time on keyboards is health ie to combat the carpal tunner syndrom.

lolive 5y ago

Remapping your keys (with .Xmodmap or Autohotkey) is imho a must-have. Doing that at hardware level with QMK sounds a pretty good alternative.

taneq 5y ago

A nice mechanical keyboard is nice, especially to touch type on. It's only going to improve your writing in the sense that you'll be in a better headspace when you write because you're using a nice keyboard, but then how many hours a day do you spend typing? Is it not worth spending them typing on something you actually enjoy using? The quality of a photographer may be independent of their camera but I guarantee professional photographers don't use cheap shitty cameras. Edit: Tradition dictates a car analogy, so - when I bought my first car I couldn't understand why people thought disk brakes were better. I mean, you can lock the wheels with drum brakes so they're equivalent, right? Then when I got my second car with all-round disk brakes I was retrospectively horrified that I'd ever trusted my first car's brakes with anything. Of course, a year later when I was more confident and started testing the limits of my second car, I found out the difference between disk brakes and racing brakes...

jonathanstrange 5y ago

Generally speaking (there are always exceptions), mechanical keyboards are one of those things that you cannot live without any more once you use them. Before that, it's hard to see a point, but going back from a good mechanical to a mushy keyboard is hard. Typing is just more fun on them. It's similar to having a favorite coffee mug for drinking coffee.

chevill 5y ago

>What's a fancy keyboard supposed to give me? If you want a standard keyboard with a standard layout or something similar, a cheap rubber dome keyboard is going to work just as well as my $600 keyboard. If that's the type of keyboard you want, the reason people like them is because they think they sound nicer, feel nicer, and in many cases look nicer. They also have better built quality and people appreciate well-built things. However, there are also situations where people are getting tangible benefits from mechanical keyboards. Some people don't have much desk space, so you can get a smaller keyboard and save room. It also makes them more portable if you feel like taking it with you. Another tangible benefit is programmability and the use of layers. Some people work faster and more efficiently with a smaller keyboard with multiple layers. Another reason to use layers is for different use cases. I can have one layer programmed with a bunch of hotkeys for Photoshop, another layer for just normal typing/computer use, and another layer setup for gaming. Another thing to consider is ergonomics. I 3d printed a case for a Dactyl Manuform and hand-wired my own customized, split ergonomic keyboard. After switching to it, the tendonitis in my wrist cleared up. So, there is value to be found. However a lot of the people that want mechanical keyboards just want something that feels like it is a quality device. If that's what you're looking for, you can get something that will likely be the nicest keyboard you've ever used for $200 or less. Once you get to the $500+ mark for an entire build, you are venturing into the territory where its more of a fashion accessory. People want cases made by certain designers and while in some cases they have better features or are machined to a higher standard, you quickly run into diminishing returns. IMO if someone wants to get into mechanical keyboards, its hard to beat the standard model of GMMK keyboards for the price. You can get it for $60 without switches or keycaps. At that point pay $30-40 for Box Jade switches if you like clicky switches, $70-100 for zeal helios switches if you like smooth linear switches, or $50 for aliaz 70g tactile switches if you like MX browns. After that spend $30-50 on a cheap but decent PBT keycap set. Finally, do about 10 minutes worth of simple modifications to the keyboard and you'll end up with something that gets you 95% of the value you'd get out of a $2000 keyboard at 1/10th of the price. https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform

mech422 5y ago
GMMK boards are surprisingly nice for the money... the new 'elite' looks to have taken it up a notch too. I originally got one, as it was hotswap and almost as cheap as a switch tester. But it compares well with say my Ducky.

jeromenerf 5y ago

Nothing a Leica rangefinder would have given you if you were not a photo journalist in the late 50s. A "special" keyboard can offer you a lot if you have an itch to scratch. Typing faster, relieving pain, automating sequences, enjoying the clicks, fast focus in low light, no mirror vibration in low light conditions, compact package, ruggedness... As a side note, photographers are really picky about their gear :)

12ian34 5y ago

Ignorance is bliss - and I genuinely don't mean this in a negative way. I was perfectly happy with my cheap keyboard until I got tempted into a mechanical and now I love it. But it's great to be happy with what you have. Desire can be a source of unhappiness!

squaredisk 5y ago

Monitor size and keyboard are far more important than the process speed in my experience. The bottleneck is never the processor speed or even RAM, but mostly the human working memory and cognitive capacity. Bigger monitor helps the former and good keyboard helps the latter with less typos.

brobdingnagians 5y ago

I have RSI in my wrists; going from the normal average keyboards I'd used my entire life to a mechanical keyboard was like having my fingers slide on butter. It feels a lot better; less impact on my fingers, don't have to bottom out. It is also nice while playing games to get the key to register half way, can jam keys much faster.

goatinaboat 5y ago

I've always used the cheapest keyboard I can find on Amazon, usually around $10. I've written software, books and movies on shitty keyboards. What's a fancy keyboard supposed to give me? I could feel the early onset of what could have become full blown carpal tunnel early in my career; since switching to mechanicals I have had absolutely zero problems. A Cherry keyboard isn't that expensive and will last forever. For me it is a very worthwhile investment in my health and the longevity of my career.

dxdm 5y ago

But what cameras do professional photographers choose, and why?

laichzeit0 5y ago

This is the usual complaint I hear from people that have never used a mechanical keyboard before.

112233 5y ago

Most of these points already have been mentioned (e.g. ergonomics. My hands stopped hurting after switch to kinesis advantage. (but bevare of the so called “ergonomic” keyboards that actually are not)) There is anothe use case for fancy keyboards: a keyboard made for specific application. I you spend most of your work time in ProTools / Resolve / InDesign / expensive CAD, then an extended keyboard makes a lot of sense. A related example is the majority of cash registers: those apple/banana key grids? They are likely a programmable computer keyboard! Those are cheap and not “fancy”, though...

alpaca128 5y ago

> Much like the quality of a photographer is quite independent of their camera And yet you'll have a really hard time finding a professional photographer using a cheap compact camera or their iPad to do their work. Just like you'll rarely see a professional developer writing code in Notepad. I can type just as fast on a standard $10 keyboard as on my custom one. But on mine I can type more accurately, more comfortably for much longer periods, I can change the layout at any time as it's fully programmable, and at the same time it feels nicer. Why would I not use it?

TheRealDunkirk 5y ago

I owned a used, but lovingly cared for, Volvo S80 T60. It was a magical car. The ride, the handling, the power, the comfort, the stereo. Everything about it was better than my current Honda Accord. My wife couldn't tell the difference in any of these things in driving it, or at least didn't care. It's a stretch, but I can imagine that undiscerning people could think a $10 membrane keyboard is fine. Statistics say those people should exist. What I can't understand is why anyone would want to spend even 5 minutes typing on one of those external Mac "magic" keyboards. They are truly terrible. Yet I know multiple people who prefer them over anything else. It just goes to show that you can't account for taste.

bloopernova 5y ago
I used to use Mac keyboards because I wanted to minimize the difference in typing feel between using the laptop keyboard and using the external keyboard. I thought I was used to that and would never want to use a mechanical keyboard, because I thought I valued very small "travel" in the keys. I quickly found that I actually really liked both the tactile feel and somewhat low audible click of the Cherry Browns. So I sort of moved from thinking I liked laptop keyboards, and hated mechanical ones, to appreciating the qualities of a good mechanical keyboard. I used a mechanical keyboard (mk for short here on out) for a while after being loaned one by a Mechanical Keyboard Zealot coworker. (he was actually super laid back, and would just lend out keyboards to people :) ) After that I bought a Corsair keyboard because I wanted to get a mk as easily as possible and didn't want to try to decode the mk subreddit. Then that started to "break" (just needed cleaning, whoops, I gave it to my nephew to go with his parents' xmas present of a gaming PC) and I got myself a Ducky mk. I also tried the ErgoDox but was getting frustrated with it during a crunch time at work, and put it aside for the ducky. One day I want to try the split keyboard again.
llimllib 5y ago
I'm currently typing on a keychron keyboard that I like well enough to use instead of the magic keyboard, but I'm more accurate and faster on the magic keyboard. As a bonus, the magic keyboard's lower profile means that I don't have to use a wrist rest when I use it, unlike all of my mechanicals, even though I've got the lowest profile available mechanical. They're extremely well engineered keyboards not worthy of your hate.

ben7799 5y ago

It's based on a false belief that the feel of these keyboards actually translates into a better experience and is less damaging on the hands/fingers. There's no proof it's true. It never holds up in studies, and if it was really true these KBs would have stayed mainstream dominant. It's a weird internet subculture, just like lots of other stuff. It's about having something fancy and/or unique and showing it to the world.

cryptos 5y ago

For me it is just more fun to write on a mechanical keyboard. I've never measured it, but I think that I'm writing a bit faster on it. But anyway, there is no other reason for me than that I like the the feeling, the sound and the mechanical quality. It's like drinking good wine.

dxuh 5y ago

On top of all the subjective emotional things, I can clearly see a difference in typing speed and accuracy. I do typing speed test from time to time and it was constant for quite some years, until I got a mech. When I got another (better) mech it got even better still. If you touch type and you are already fast, the tactile feedback of switches really closes up the feedback loop a lot better. Your fingers know you screwed up, before your eyes have to see the mistake. And it's also easier on my hands for some reason, but may have more complex causes.