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I don’t think many people doubt that there is a substantial hereditary component to the variation in intelligence between people. So, presumably, you are talki

by drdeca 6y ago

I don’t think many people doubt that there is a substantial hereditary component to the variation in intelligence between people. So, presumably, you are talking about something else. There are ways of categorizing people into different groups which do not cleave reality at the joints. The further some such categorization is from cleaving reality at the joints, the more foolish one would have to be in order to be preoccupied with an alleged connection between the categories in such a mistaken categorization, and intelligence.

CryptoPunk 6y ago
It may be necessary to acknowledge the possibility that heritable intelligence varies between demographic groups to counter accusations that society is engaging in systemic discrimination against [insert group] on the basis that disparities in achievement exist between that group and the general population. But as it happens, rapid improvement in socioeconomic indicators were seen in the black population, which is the demographic group most commonly alleged to be a victim of systemic discrimination, BEFORE the rise of social welfare spending, and before the post-civil-rights-era racial victimhood culture (e.g. homicide rates among black Americans declined in the 40s and 50s), so the facts are actually quite supportive of the nurture side of the nurture vs nature debate on the causes of racial disparities.
open0 6y ago
> I don’t think many people doubt that there is a substantial hereditary component to the variation in intelligence between people. I highly doubt it. Why exactly do you think this? Because some traits have been associated with intelligence?
- concordDance 6y ago
  Adoption and twin studies mostly. I believe the wikipedia article on heritability of intelligence is still decent enough to be a good starting point.
  - open0 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ This one? It does not indicate nearly the certainty that other commenters here do. Read it yourself, it's a good argument for what I'm saying. The GP characterized this scientific debate as settled, yet there is actually very slim evidence in that article for what is being claimed. Why would it be surprising if among 1000s of the highest IQ individuals in some particular place, that there would be genetic similarities between them? It's completely possible that large groups among these people share a closer familial lineage far back into history that has influenced their present-day social and economic status, which are the factors that are actually responsible for developmental health and correspondingly intelligence, and so the genetic similarity is just a byproduct of the conferral of wealth and status between generations over a long period of time.
    - drdeca 6y ago
      Why would the “what if inter-generational wealth” point impact what twin studies and such show? If the correlation between the measured IQ of monozygotic twins is substantially more than between other siblings, how would wealthy/poor ancestors impact that? Even if wealth had an impact on the probability of having twins, I still don’t see how that would result in the correlation between twins being more, even when raised apart.
      - open0 5y ago
        I had other studies in mind (done in China) regarding that specific point, it's what I had assumed a lot of posters here were referring to because it's normally a favorite of people who are eager to jump to certain conclusions about genetics. There are other problems with twin studies, most importantly that developmental health starts at conception which means that genetics are not the only thing that twins are sharing. Once again I'll refer you to Wikipedia for further criticisms of twin studies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study#Criticism
        5y ago
- drdeca 6y ago
  Is it not well known that smart people tend to have smart children (though there is also regression to the mean). I’m not talking about it being correlated with other traits, just intelligence itself being heritable. Well, I say “itself”, I imagine the same genes also have other impacts on other unknown things that are not noticed, because the interactions between genes is super complicated (I think?), but that’s practically the same as “itself”. Why else would intelligence be attractive, if it weren’t heritable?

by drdeca 6y ago

CryptoPunk 6y ago

It may be necessary to acknowledge the possibility that heritable intelligence varies between demographic groups to counter accusations that society is engaging in systemic discrimination against [insert group] on the basis that disparities in achievement exist between that group and the general population. But as it happens, rapid improvement in socioeconomic indicators were seen in the black population, which is the demographic group most commonly alleged to be a victim of systemic discrimination, BEFORE the rise of social welfare spending, and before the post-civil-rights-era racial victimhood culture (e.g. homicide rates among black Americans declined in the 40s and 50s), so the facts are actually quite supportive of the nurture side of the nurture vs nature debate on the causes of racial disparities.

open0 6y ago

> I don’t think many people doubt that there is a substantial hereditary component to the variation in intelligence between people. I highly doubt it. Why exactly do you think this? Because some traits have been associated with intelligence?

concordDance 6y ago
Adoption and twin studies mostly. I believe the wikipedia article on heritability of intelligence is still decent enough to be a good starting point.
- open0 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ This one? It does not indicate nearly the certainty that other commenters here do. Read it yourself, it's a good argument for what I'm saying. The GP characterized this scientific debate as settled, yet there is actually very slim evidence in that article for what is being claimed. Why would it be surprising if among 1000s of the highest IQ individuals in some particular place, that there would be genetic similarities between them? It's completely possible that large groups among these people share a closer familial lineage far back into history that has influenced their present-day social and economic status, which are the factors that are actually responsible for developmental health and correspondingly intelligence, and so the genetic similarity is just a byproduct of the conferral of wealth and status between generations over a long period of time.
  - drdeca 6y ago
    Why would the “what if inter-generational wealth” point impact what twin studies and such show? If the correlation between the measured IQ of monozygotic twins is substantially more than between other siblings, how would wealthy/poor ancestors impact that? Even if wealth had an impact on the probability of having twins, I still don’t see how that would result in the correlation between twins being more, even when raised apart.
    - open0 5y ago
      I had other studies in mind (done in China) regarding that specific point, it's what I had assumed a lot of posters here were referring to because it's normally a favorite of people who are eager to jump to certain conclusions about genetics. There are other problems with twin studies, most importantly that developmental health starts at conception which means that genetics are not the only thing that twins are sharing. Once again I'll refer you to Wikipedia for further criticisms of twin studies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study#Criticism
      - 5y ago
drdeca 6y ago
Is it not well known that smart people tend to have smart children (though there is also regression to the mean). I’m not talking about it being correlated with other traits, just intelligence itself being heritable. Well, I say “itself”, I imagine the same genes also have other impacts on other unknown things that are not noticed, because the interactions between genes is super complicated (I think?), but that’s practically the same as “itself”. Why else would intelligence be attractive, if it weren’t heritable?