8 ms·

I worry about things like this trivialising the difficulty of the past. Something like this is more like modding a game than making a new game in terms of tech.

by t8y 5y ago

I worry about things like this trivialising the difficulty of the past. Something like this is more like modding a game than making a new game in terms of tech. It makes it seem like it's really easy to make a Game Boy game, when the creators of this put in heaps of work (more than just making a game) into making a tool that gives people the ability to reskin their base game. Homebrew that's designed to run in an emulator isn't the same as running on actual hardware either. In the past people had to think about things like how to fit a 20hr RPG into less than 1MB. Now you could make tile sheets for each room because the game can be much shorter. Other things like how art assets can look good on a modern LCD monitor when on an actual Game Boy they would be a blurry mess also contribute to a misunderstanding of retro games. People already have an unrealistic view of "retro" games because in GameMaker or Unity it's easy to have 1000s of sprites, shaders and 32bit colour(You can even have HDR sprites if you want) when that isn't possible on the actual hardware. I'm not trying to hate on GB Studio it looks great, just some thoughts.

numlock86 5y ago
Despite your gatekeeping thoughts I think things like this are great. You make it sound like it's a bad thing that you abstract the difficulty from past times away, but what actually will happen is that it makes this stuff much more accessible to get started with it at all. There will be a few people among those falling down the rabbit hole and end up at reading and writing raw code for the Game Boy because stuff like this will always limit you in some way.
- t8y 5y ago
  I think there's lots of good things about GB Studio I just didn't want to write some kind of HN manifesto on Game Boy game development. For example I'm sure with GB Studio it's possible to run into hardware limitations like sprites per line, music causing lag etc.
- le-mark 5y ago
  GP makes some valid points, why would one accuse GP of gatekeeping? I think anyone who jumps to such an unfounded, uncharitable conclusion should consider their own biases first.
  - numlock86 5y ago
    > [...] why would one accuse GP of gatekeeping? Well, for starters the comment was listing all the good things about GB Studio as bad things, going even as far as being "worried" about it. The motivation was that it makes this stuff look too easy and giving people an "unrealistic view", whatever that is even supposed to mean. Basically every line is going into full defense, trying to tell how "super-duper elite" the whole idea of programming "back in the day" was or rather still is. This perception, at least for OP, needs to stay that way for everyone else and GB Studio is putting it into danger. That's gatekeeping. Look it up.
parski 5y ago
You're absolutely on the money. If you scrape the surface of Game Boy development you'll find that it's even inadvisable to use C since the hardware is so weak (compared to today's standards) that you really need to squeeze out performance at the instruction level. If GB Studio and GBDK spurs someone's interest to get into Game Boy development, great, but getting the most out of the hardware requires a lot more effort.
- bbbbbr 5y ago
  Aside from some a couple performance critical parts of code or if you're trying to push the hardware to it's maximum limits with effects or complex mechanics, C is totally sufficient for writing entire (and performant) games on the Game Boy. Many polished homebrew GB games have been (and are being) written and completed using C. Of course, now the number of games now being made with GB Studio completely eclipses the number written in C and assembly. Most of the GBDK/GBDK-2020 API used for C development is written in assembly, so if you use C you get some benefits of using assembly anyway. Here's a more nuanced guide for choosing which development tools to use. https://gbdev.io/to_c_or_not_to_c.html https://gbdev.io/to_c_or_not_to_c.html And a couple recent-ish examples of polished games: GB Studio: https://lumpytouch.itch.io/super-impostor-bros https://lumpytouch.itch.io/super-impostor-bros C/GBDK: https://pocketpixel.design/super-jetpak-dx-game-boy-rom.html https://pocketpixel.design/super-jetpak-dx-game-boy-rom.html https://user0x7f.itch.io/black-castle https://user0x7f.itch.io/black-castle https://tangramgames.itch.io/tobu-tobu-girl-deluxe https://tangramgames.itch.io/tobu-tobu-girl-deluxe C/GBDK + ZGB: https://aiguanachein.itch.io/powa https://aiguanachein.itch.io/powa (edit: line breaks)
daniellarusso 5y ago
So, is this akin to using React native instead of writing native iOS and Android apps?
- sen 5y ago
  Yes, and despite the comment above that's a GOOD thing. Making things easier for people to get into, and get interested in, is always a good thing. It might not be the "best" way to do something, but if it gets them keen and learning then eventually they'll reach the limitations of it and be motivated to move further up (down?) the stack to learn more "proper" methods/languages/etc later. I started with GameMaker Studio and it let me get a simple platformer up in a weekend, and let me make/publish multiple "full" games that have been enjoyed by my kids for hundreds of hours. It then led me to learn Unity/Blender/etc so I could get beyond the limits of GMS.
Agentlien 5y ago
I myself am very glad that game development tools are becoming increasingly accessible and the barrier of entry is lowering. If I see people making new stuff with little effort I'm happy to see more people expressing their creativity and choosing to make stuff, not upset that they don't appreciate how hard it used to be.
anthk 5y ago
>In the past people had to think about things like how to fit a 20hr RPG into less than 1MB You mean the didn't use cross compilers/art tools under Amigas/i386 PC's? Don't be delusional, man, everyone used these tools, even stuff like Deluxe Paint and them a custom tool to convert between graphic formats. Also, most developers rehashed engines over and over. They would write an engine once per genre/game type. Simillar environemnts exist today for the ZX Spectrum and as long as you can optimize/rewrite with inline Z80 code, they should be fine.
yowlingcat 5y ago
> trivialising the difficulty of the past What's bad about that? Is the purpose of game dev to write the most efficient game code, or to make more fun games? If it's the latter, then it's simultaneously the case that 1) this IS "trivialising" (or removing unnecessary) difficulty and 2) that's a good thing. There's more to life than trying to fit the richest "20hr RPG into less than 1MB" -- who's to say that's what the goalpost should be anyways?

by t8y 5y ago

numlock86 5y ago

Despite your gatekeeping thoughts I think things like this are great. You make it sound like it's a bad thing that you abstract the difficulty from past times away, but what actually will happen is that it makes this stuff much more accessible to get started with it at all. There will be a few people among those falling down the rabbit hole and end up at reading and writing raw code for the Game Boy because stuff like this will always limit you in some way.

t8y 5y ago
I think there's lots of good things about GB Studio I just didn't want to write some kind of HN manifesto on Game Boy game development. For example I'm sure with GB Studio it's possible to run into hardware limitations like sprites per line, music causing lag etc.
le-mark 5y ago
GP makes some valid points, why would one accuse GP of gatekeeping? I think anyone who jumps to such an unfounded, uncharitable conclusion should consider their own biases first.
- numlock86 5y ago
  > [...] why would one accuse GP of gatekeeping? Well, for starters the comment was listing all the good things about GB Studio as bad things, going even as far as being "worried" about it. The motivation was that it makes this stuff look too easy and giving people an "unrealistic view", whatever that is even supposed to mean. Basically every line is going into full defense, trying to tell how "super-duper elite" the whole idea of programming "back in the day" was or rather still is. This perception, at least for OP, needs to stay that way for everyone else and GB Studio is putting it into danger. That's gatekeeping. Look it up.

parski 5y ago

You're absolutely on the money. If you scrape the surface of Game Boy development you'll find that it's even inadvisable to use C since the hardware is so weak (compared to today's standards) that you really need to squeeze out performance at the instruction level. If GB Studio and GBDK spurs someone's interest to get into Game Boy development, great, but getting the most out of the hardware requires a lot more effort.

bbbbbr 5y ago
Aside from some a couple performance critical parts of code or if you're trying to push the hardware to it's maximum limits with effects or complex mechanics, C is totally sufficient for writing entire (and performant) games on the Game Boy. Many polished homebrew GB games have been (and are being) written and completed using C. Of course, now the number of games now being made with GB Studio completely eclipses the number written in C and assembly. Most of the GBDK/GBDK-2020 API used for C development is written in assembly, so if you use C you get some benefits of using assembly anyway. Here's a more nuanced guide for choosing which development tools to use. https://gbdev.io/to_c_or_not_to_c.html https://gbdev.io/to_c_or_not_to_c.html And a couple recent-ish examples of polished games: GB Studio: https://lumpytouch.itch.io/super-impostor-bros https://lumpytouch.itch.io/super-impostor-bros C/GBDK: https://pocketpixel.design/super-jetpak-dx-game-boy-rom.html https://pocketpixel.design/super-jetpak-dx-game-boy-rom.html https://user0x7f.itch.io/black-castle https://user0x7f.itch.io/black-castle https://tangramgames.itch.io/tobu-tobu-girl-deluxe https://tangramgames.itch.io/tobu-tobu-girl-deluxe C/GBDK + ZGB: https://aiguanachein.itch.io/powa https://aiguanachein.itch.io/powa (edit: line breaks)

daniellarusso 5y ago

So, is this akin to using React native instead of writing native iOS and Android apps?

sen 5y ago
Yes, and despite the comment above that's a GOOD thing. Making things easier for people to get into, and get interested in, is always a good thing. It might not be the "best" way to do something, but if it gets them keen and learning then eventually they'll reach the limitations of it and be motivated to move further up (down?) the stack to learn more "proper" methods/languages/etc later. I started with GameMaker Studio and it let me get a simple platformer up in a weekend, and let me make/publish multiple "full" games that have been enjoyed by my kids for hundreds of hours. It then led me to learn Unity/Blender/etc so I could get beyond the limits of GMS.

Agentlien 5y ago

I myself am very glad that game development tools are becoming increasingly accessible and the barrier of entry is lowering. If I see people making new stuff with little effort I'm happy to see more people expressing their creativity and choosing to make stuff, not upset that they don't appreciate how hard it used to be.

anthk 5y ago

>In the past people had to think about things like how to fit a 20hr RPG into less than 1MB You mean the didn't use cross compilers/art tools under Amigas/i386 PC's? Don't be delusional, man, everyone used these tools, even stuff like Deluxe Paint and them a custom tool to convert between graphic formats. Also, most developers rehashed engines over and over. They would write an engine once per genre/game type. Simillar environemnts exist today for the ZX Spectrum and as long as you can optimize/rewrite with inline Z80 code, they should be fine.

yowlingcat 5y ago

> trivialising the difficulty of the past What's bad about that? Is the purpose of game dev to write the most efficient game code, or to make more fun games? If it's the latter, then it's simultaneously the case that 1) this IS "trivialising" (or removing unnecessary) difficulty and 2) that's a good thing. There's more to life than trying to fit the richest "20hr RPG into less than 1MB" -- who's to say that's what the goalpost should be anyways?