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I will just leave it at this: For evolution to work, IQ has to be heritable, otherwise how did humans evolve intelligence? People who believe in evolution, but

I will just leave it at this: For evolution to work, IQ has to be heritable, otherwise how did humans evolve intelligence? People who believe in evolution, but not in heritability of personality traits are living in a warped reality. I'm not that interested in proving my point, I'm just more shocked at how many people hold obviously false beliefs.

AussieWog93 5y ago
It's not an "obviously false" belief, it's one backed by good data and science. Intelligence and other personality traits are of course heritable, but controlled by thousands of genes that are unlikely to shift significantly over the course of around 50,000 years. Intelligence and personality are also a result of culture, and we've seen a 30 point increase in IQ scores in a single century, and a similarly spectacular drop in violent crime rates. If you honestly believe racial genetics are a significant factor, you are either willfully ignorant or unable to engage in complex thought processes yourself.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  > thousands of genes that are unlikely to shift significantly over the course of around 50,000 years. Large evolutionary changes can happen rather rapidly with the right sustained pressures, certainly within a 50,000 year window. Check out this plot of brain size over time[1] If we can have such a dramatic increase in brain volume over a 500k year window, then we can absolutely have nontrivial changes to intelligence in a 50k year window. > Intelligence ... are also a result of culture IQ differences between races may be a result of prenatal nutrition, but I struggle to believe that they're a result of culture. The reason I doubt this is transracial adoption studies where the child is adopted out at birth to well-off white parents and tested at a very young age. So I can plausibly see how bad prenatal nutrition could have reduced this kids' IQ but attributing it to culture stretches credulity a bit, in my opinion. (I could be wrong about that though, as the kids weren't that young, so it's plausible that there's some cultural influence from early school friends, but I still think that it strains credulity). [1] http://aquatic-human-ancestor.org/anatomy/images/brain-size-sm.jpg http://aquatic-human-ancestor.org/anatomy/images/brain-size-...
- concordDance 5y ago
  > Intelligence and other personality traits are of course heritable, but controlled by thousands of genes that are unlikely to shift significantly over the course of around 50,000 years. This sounds pretty convincing, but it seems to prove too much. Doesn't this also refute the idea of individual gentic differences in intelligence? Which we know exist due to the incredibly high heritability of intelligence? Couldn't whatever allows these differences to exist not vary in strength depending on the emvironmental pressures sustained over thousands of years?
drdeca 5y ago
I don’t think many people doubt that there is a substantial hereditary component to the variation in intelligence between people. So, presumably, you are talking about something else. There are ways of categorizing people into different groups which do not cleave reality at the joints. The further some such categorization is from cleaving reality at the joints, the more foolish one would have to be in order to be preoccupied with an alleged connection between the categories in such a mistaken categorization, and intelligence.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  It may be necessary to acknowledge the possibility that heritable intelligence varies between demographic groups to counter accusations that society is engaging in systemic discrimination against [insert group] on the basis that disparities in achievement exist between that group and the general population. But as it happens, rapid improvement in socioeconomic indicators were seen in the black population, which is the demographic group most commonly alleged to be a victim of systemic discrimination, BEFORE the rise of social welfare spending, and before the post-civil-rights-era racial victimhood culture (e.g. homicide rates among black Americans declined in the 40s and 50s), so the facts are actually quite supportive of the nurture side of the nurture vs nature debate on the causes of racial disparities.
- open0 5y ago
  > I don’t think many people doubt that there is a substantial hereditary component to the variation in intelligence between people. I highly doubt it. Why exactly do you think this? Because some traits have been associated with intelligence?
  - concordDance 5y ago
    Adoption and twin studies mostly. I believe the wikipedia article on heritability of intelligence is still decent enough to be a good starting point.
    - open0 5y ago
meroes 5y ago
You've done all this supposed work and don't know the difference between heritability and genetic? Someone's favorite soda is hereitable too.
jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
Anatomically modern humans have been around for 2.5 million years. Behaviorally modern humans only about 200k. Initially this was assumed to be evidence of a simple gene that created a breakthrough to language, culture, etc. Continuing archeological evidence is now strongly slanted against that, particularly evidence from microlithic industries. It now appears far more likely that behavioral modernity emerged organically as a primitive social complex. Different locations independently discovered different pieces of the "toolkit" but it wasn't until the full kit of critical tools came together that we have the breakthrough to complex societies. Basically, your perspective on IQ and heritability is very cartoonish. I'd suggest spending some time on wikipedia. I'd also familiarize yourself with the classic rebuttal of The Bell Curve, which clarifies the difference between heritability and genetic determinism. Culture and social complexes are heritable.

AussieWog93 5y ago

It's not an "obviously false" belief, it's one backed by good data and science. Intelligence and other personality traits are of course heritable, but controlled by thousands of genes that are unlikely to shift significantly over the course of around 50,000 years. Intelligence and personality are also a result of culture, and we've seen a 30 point increase in IQ scores in a single century, and a similarly spectacular drop in violent crime rates. If you honestly believe racial genetics are a significant factor, you are either willfully ignorant or unable to engage in complex thought processes yourself.

fighterpilot 5y ago
> thousands of genes that are unlikely to shift significantly over the course of around 50,000 years. Large evolutionary changes can happen rather rapidly with the right sustained pressures, certainly within a 50,000 year window. Check out this plot of brain size over time[1] If we can have such a dramatic increase in brain volume over a 500k year window, then we can absolutely have nontrivial changes to intelligence in a 50k year window. > Intelligence ... are also a result of culture IQ differences between races may be a result of prenatal nutrition, but I struggle to believe that they're a result of culture. The reason I doubt this is transracial adoption studies where the child is adopted out at birth to well-off white parents and tested at a very young age. So I can plausibly see how bad prenatal nutrition could have reduced this kids' IQ but attributing it to culture stretches credulity a bit, in my opinion. (I could be wrong about that though, as the kids weren't that young, so it's plausible that there's some cultural influence from early school friends, but I still think that it strains credulity). [1] http://aquatic-human-ancestor.org/anatomy/images/brain-size-sm.jpg http://aquatic-human-ancestor.org/anatomy/images/brain-size-...
concordDance 5y ago
> Intelligence and other personality traits are of course heritable, but controlled by thousands of genes that are unlikely to shift significantly over the course of around 50,000 years. This sounds pretty convincing, but it seems to prove too much. Doesn't this also refute the idea of individual gentic differences in intelligence? Which we know exist due to the incredibly high heritability of intelligence? Couldn't whatever allows these differences to exist not vary in strength depending on the emvironmental pressures sustained over thousands of years?

drdeca 5y ago

I don’t think many people doubt that there is a substantial hereditary component to the variation in intelligence between people. So, presumably, you are talking about something else. There are ways of categorizing people into different groups which do not cleave reality at the joints. The further some such categorization is from cleaving reality at the joints, the more foolish one would have to be in order to be preoccupied with an alleged connection between the categories in such a mistaken categorization, and intelligence.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
It may be necessary to acknowledge the possibility that heritable intelligence varies between demographic groups to counter accusations that society is engaging in systemic discrimination against [insert group] on the basis that disparities in achievement exist between that group and the general population. But as it happens, rapid improvement in socioeconomic indicators were seen in the black population, which is the demographic group most commonly alleged to be a victim of systemic discrimination, BEFORE the rise of social welfare spending, and before the post-civil-rights-era racial victimhood culture (e.g. homicide rates among black Americans declined in the 40s and 50s), so the facts are actually quite supportive of the nurture side of the nurture vs nature debate on the causes of racial disparities.
open0 5y ago
> I don’t think many people doubt that there is a substantial hereditary component to the variation in intelligence between people. I highly doubt it. Why exactly do you think this? Because some traits have been associated with intelligence?
- concordDance 5y ago
  Adoption and twin studies mostly. I believe the wikipedia article on heritability of intelligence is still decent enough to be a good starting point.
  - open0 5y ago

meroes 5y ago

You've done all this supposed work and don't know the difference between heritability and genetic? Someone's favorite soda is hereitable too.

jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago

Anatomically modern humans have been around for 2.5 million years. Behaviorally modern humans only about 200k. Initially this was assumed to be evidence of a simple gene that created a breakthrough to language, culture, etc. Continuing archeological evidence is now strongly slanted against that, particularly evidence from microlithic industries. It now appears far more likely that behavioral modernity emerged organically as a primitive social complex. Different locations independently discovered different pieces of the "toolkit" but it wasn't until the full kit of critical tools came together that we have the breakthrough to complex societies. Basically, your perspective on IQ and heritability is very cartoonish. I'd suggest spending some time on wikipedia. I'd also familiarize yourself with the classic rebuttal of The Bell Curve, which clarifies the difference between heritability and genetic determinism. Culture and social complexes are heritable.