6 ms·

Don’t want to do Leetcode? Me neither — after I left Airbnb I vowed to not work at any company that asks this kind of question. I interviewed at a bunch of inte

by jitl 6y ago

Don’t want to do Leetcode? Me neither — after I left Airbnb I vowed to not work at any company that asks this kind of question. I interviewed at a bunch of interesting companies (Airtable, Brex, Eaze, Figma, Lob, Notion, ...) none of which asked this kind of algo brain teaser question. There are tons of places out there with great product, interesting problems, and good compensation - so if you hate this bullshit, don’t give up. I interview candidates every day, and my impression is that a candidate from FAANG/leetcode company is no better or worse than any other candidate. Anywho, I’m hiring for a bunch of roles - full stack, Android, infra, SRE, early career, etc - if you’re interested in Notion (https://www.notion.so/careers https://www.notion.so/careers) ping me on Twitter @jitl.

qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago
What do you do instead? It seems to me that having tough interview questions can allow a company to be less credentialist, because they know their questions are tough enough that anyone who solves them is qualified to work there. My resume doesn't necessarily make me look like a senior developer, but leetcode mediums are no trouble for me and with a little effort I think I could learn to solve hards quickly and reliably as well. So I've got a comparative advantage applying at a company that has that sort of interview.
- jitl 6y ago
  We ask questions similar to the work you'd actually do at Notion; see our interview guide here: https://www.notion.so/Guide-to-Engineering-Interviews-63876cbf0aa9455fa0f0ffc854b40f6a https://www.notion.so/Guide-to-Engineering-Interviews-63876c.... Looking at a smattering of leetcode mediums, I don't understand how someone being able to return "the elements of a 2d matrix in spiral order" (https://leetcode.com/problems/spiral-matrix/ https://leetcode.com/problems/spiral-matrix/) or use Kadane's algortith to solve "k-concatenation max sum" (https://leetcode.com/problems/k-concatenation-maximum-sum/ https://leetcode.com/problems/k-concatenation-maximum-sum/) pertains to building multiplayer software as part of a team.
  - lentil_soup 6y ago
    I read the guide to engineering interviews you posted, but I am curious about the difference between your "Technical Screen" and leetcode type questions. Having to solve a problem while someone is watching and having to talk while you do it sounds similar to the FAANG style. Maybe I'm missing something?
    - jitl 6y ago
      From our guide: > Please prepare a skeleton web application, using any web server framework you like, preferably a lightweight one, e.g. express (node), flask (python), sinatra (ruby). > Have a tool to send payloads to your server and inspect responses, for example cURL or Postman. No front-end client is required other than cURL or Postman to send test requests. This will be a backend only exercise. This is a far cry from leetcode stuff - these are real world tools and concepts many developers use every day. Yes, it is an interview with time pressure, talking, and problem solving. But, the tools and problem are much closer to web development than they are to a CS51 graph proof.
      - lentil_soup 6y ago
        Hmm I don't see the quoted text in the guide. Maybe it's something different internally? The page I see only says there's a 60min "language-agnostic coding exercise" and that you have to share your screen and talk through your thought process. That's why it felt similar to leetcode stuff.
    - redis_mlc 6y ago
      LeetCode is a problem that took a famous computer scientist a month to write a paper about, but you have 30 minutes in a proprietary web app to either remember or re-invent it, and pass a test suite.
      - intergalplan 6y ago
        LeetCode-type interviews are about 60% a how-bad-do-you-want-this test, and 40% a barely-concealed IQ test. I'm not even sure that's the wrong way for FAANG to do things, given how many people want to work there. I do know it's a damn bad idea for any place not offering FAANG-like comp, since at lower comp levels you're in competition with a ton of places that don't demand hours of grinding leetcode to prove you want the job bad enough.
- ramtatatam 6y ago
  I used to spend whole interview working on actual problems candidate will face on day-to-day. When hiring for back-end roles I had a few scripts I used to use to see how candidate does code review, or had an EC2 instance with specific problem simulated so candidate could look around and talk about what they see and how would they approach the problem at hand. I only gave algorithm problems to juniors who claimed they can code.
pmiller2 6y ago
I'm just gonna glom on to this for visibility, but I'd like to say I wish there was a good list of companies that don't do leetcode-style interviews. Frankly, I'm sick of leetcode, and I feel like it takes a lot of fun out of working in tech to have to grind this skill that's completely unrelated to any sort of real work. (Rant mode off) Anybody know of such a list? Edit: I should add that I'd really like to be pointed toward companies that use a structured interview process. Literally fewer than 1 in 10 SF tech companies seems to have any idea what they're doing when it comes to interviewing, and a structured interview process goes a long way toward fixing that deficiency. I'm familiar with the "hiring without whiteboards" list, and that does't seem to be quite what I'm looking for.
- 01100011 6y ago
  Do you want companies that don't do leetcode, or companies that don't do leetcode yet pay you a FANG salary? The list of companies that don't do leetcode are probably quite long, but you're looking at an average salary in an average town(i.e. $120-180k/year salary with decent benefits and meager stock opportunities). There's nothing wrong with that. I'd certainly go that route if I could afford to. If you're looking at making above average pay, you'll probably have to jump through those hoops though. For what it's worth, as an "embedded guy" who went into programming with a EE degree and no algorithm experience, I used to loathe the leetcode dance. After working at a FANG where I actually needed to know some of that stuff, I now don't see it as pure evil. Sure, it's a bit overboard, but some of the problems you'll encounter at some of these companies really do require a level of competence and dedication that is something I rarely encountered in 20 years outside the valley. Maybe it's the particular company I ended up at, but I am working with some insanely smart and dedicated folks. I definitely do not belong among them but it's certainly been a learning experience and something I'm thankful for.
  - jitl 6y ago
    Android, iOS, and front-end interview tracks tend to be more “hands on” even at companies that use leetcode/algo questions for full stack or backend roles. Airbnb pays very competitively (compare to Google and Facebook https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Airbnb/Google/Facebook https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Airbnb/Google/Facebook) and is lighter on the algo stuff for the specialties I mentioned.
mettamage 6y ago
Wow, that job ad (early career) looks awesome! Do you hire from Europe / The Netherlands? With every single thing that I'm reading I'm agreeing and/or have some experience with it. The most fun example: the background of my thesis touches on Engelbart! What a visionary he was. Well, I applied anyway :)
gavinmckenzie 6y ago
In the past decade I have politely declined to answer leetcode style questions in interviews. I’ll offer to discuss how to solve coding problems in general terms, and I’ll happily whiteboard diagram solutions, but I will not code on a whiteboard or on a computer set up for the purpose in an interview. While interviewers are initially surprised at my unwillingness to answer such questions, it often starts a short discussion about interview practices, and my observations about fantastic high-performing colleagues who have been passed over because they failed at interview coding challenges. Thus far I haven’t lost an opportunity by declining to do coding exercises. In contrast, the couple of times I’ve played the leetcode game, I’ve lost the opportunity despite doing very well in the other interview phases. I realize I have an advantage of being in this business for 30 years, having a lengthy and robust CV, and having been a hiring manager who can talk about my own experiences of being the interviewer rather than the interviewee.
arwhatever 6y ago
I've created a website - https://sievejobs.com https://sievejobs.com - to allow job seekers to hard-filter out companies with this sort of interview process, and also to quantify to hiring companies exactly how many job seekers they're missing out on. (The site treats other job elements similarly: open seating plans, remote-ness, etc.)

by jitl 6y ago

qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago

What do you do instead? It seems to me that having tough interview questions can allow a company to be less credentialist, because they know their questions are tough enough that anyone who solves them is qualified to work there. My resume doesn't necessarily make me look like a senior developer, but leetcode mediums are no trouble for me and with a little effort I think I could learn to solve hards quickly and reliably as well. So I've got a comparative advantage applying at a company that has that sort of interview.

jitl 6y ago
We ask questions similar to the work you'd actually do at Notion; see our interview guide here: https://www.notion.so/Guide-to-Engineering-Interviews-63876cbf0aa9455fa0f0ffc854b40f6a https://www.notion.so/Guide-to-Engineering-Interviews-63876c.... Looking at a smattering of leetcode mediums, I don't understand how someone being able to return "the elements of a 2d matrix in spiral order" (https://leetcode.com/problems/spiral-matrix/ https://leetcode.com/problems/spiral-matrix/) or use Kadane's algortith to solve "k-concatenation max sum" (https://leetcode.com/problems/k-concatenation-maximum-sum/ https://leetcode.com/problems/k-concatenation-maximum-sum/) pertains to building multiplayer software as part of a team.
- lentil_soup 6y ago
  I read the guide to engineering interviews you posted, but I am curious about the difference between your "Technical Screen" and leetcode type questions. Having to solve a problem while someone is watching and having to talk while you do it sounds similar to the FAANG style. Maybe I'm missing something?
  - jitl 6y ago
    From our guide: > Please prepare a skeleton web application, using any web server framework you like, preferably a lightweight one, e.g. express (node), flask (python), sinatra (ruby). > Have a tool to send payloads to your server and inspect responses, for example cURL or Postman. No front-end client is required other than cURL or Postman to send test requests. This will be a backend only exercise. This is a far cry from leetcode stuff - these are real world tools and concepts many developers use every day. Yes, it is an interview with time pressure, talking, and problem solving. But, the tools and problem are much closer to web development than they are to a CS51 graph proof.
    - lentil_soup 6y ago
      Hmm I don't see the quoted text in the guide. Maybe it's something different internally? The page I see only says there's a 60min "language-agnostic coding exercise" and that you have to share your screen and talk through your thought process. That's why it felt similar to leetcode stuff.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    LeetCode is a problem that took a famous computer scientist a month to write a paper about, but you have 30 minutes in a proprietary web app to either remember or re-invent it, and pass a test suite.
    - intergalplan 6y ago
      LeetCode-type interviews are about 60% a how-bad-do-you-want-this test, and 40% a barely-concealed IQ test. I'm not even sure that's the wrong way for FAANG to do things, given how many people want to work there. I do know it's a damn bad idea for any place not offering FAANG-like comp, since at lower comp levels you're in competition with a ton of places that don't demand hours of grinding leetcode to prove you want the job bad enough.
ramtatatam 6y ago
I used to spend whole interview working on actual problems candidate will face on day-to-day. When hiring for back-end roles I had a few scripts I used to use to see how candidate does code review, or had an EC2 instance with specific problem simulated so candidate could look around and talk about what they see and how would they approach the problem at hand. I only gave algorithm problems to juniors who claimed they can code.

pmiller2 6y ago

I'm just gonna glom on to this for visibility, but I'd like to say I wish there was a good list of companies that don't do leetcode-style interviews. Frankly, I'm sick of leetcode, and I feel like it takes a lot of fun out of working in tech to have to grind this skill that's completely unrelated to any sort of real work. (Rant mode off) Anybody know of such a list? Edit: I should add that I'd really like to be pointed toward companies that use a structured interview process. Literally fewer than 1 in 10 SF tech companies seems to have any idea what they're doing when it comes to interviewing, and a structured interview process goes a long way toward fixing that deficiency. I'm familiar with the "hiring without whiteboards" list, and that does't seem to be quite what I'm looking for.

01100011 6y ago
Do you want companies that don't do leetcode, or companies that don't do leetcode yet pay you a FANG salary? The list of companies that don't do leetcode are probably quite long, but you're looking at an average salary in an average town(i.e. $120-180k/year salary with decent benefits and meager stock opportunities). There's nothing wrong with that. I'd certainly go that route if I could afford to. If you're looking at making above average pay, you'll probably have to jump through those hoops though. For what it's worth, as an "embedded guy" who went into programming with a EE degree and no algorithm experience, I used to loathe the leetcode dance. After working at a FANG where I actually needed to know some of that stuff, I now don't see it as pure evil. Sure, it's a bit overboard, but some of the problems you'll encounter at some of these companies really do require a level of competence and dedication that is something I rarely encountered in 20 years outside the valley. Maybe it's the particular company I ended up at, but I am working with some insanely smart and dedicated folks. I definitely do not belong among them but it's certainly been a learning experience and something I'm thankful for.
- jitl 6y ago
  Android, iOS, and front-end interview tracks tend to be more “hands on” even at companies that use leetcode/algo questions for full stack or backend roles. Airbnb pays very competitively (compare to Google and Facebook https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Airbnb/Google/Facebook https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Airbnb/Google/Facebook) and is lighter on the algo stuff for the specialties I mentioned.

mettamage 6y ago

Wow, that job ad (early career) looks awesome! Do you hire from Europe / The Netherlands? With every single thing that I'm reading I'm agreeing and/or have some experience with it. The most fun example: the background of my thesis touches on Engelbart! What a visionary he was. Well, I applied anyway :)

gavinmckenzie 6y ago

In the past decade I have politely declined to answer leetcode style questions in interviews. I’ll offer to discuss how to solve coding problems in general terms, and I’ll happily whiteboard diagram solutions, but I will not code on a whiteboard or on a computer set up for the purpose in an interview. While interviewers are initially surprised at my unwillingness to answer such questions, it often starts a short discussion about interview practices, and my observations about fantastic high-performing colleagues who have been passed over because they failed at interview coding challenges. Thus far I haven’t lost an opportunity by declining to do coding exercises. In contrast, the couple of times I’ve played the leetcode game, I’ve lost the opportunity despite doing very well in the other interview phases. I realize I have an advantage of being in this business for 30 years, having a lengthy and robust CV, and having been a hiring manager who can talk about my own experiences of being the interviewer rather than the interviewee.

arwhatever 6y ago

I've created a website - https://sievejobs.com https://sievejobs.com - to allow job seekers to hard-filter out companies with this sort of interview process, and also to quantify to hiring companies exactly how many job seekers they're missing out on. (The site treats other job elements similarly: open seating plans, remote-ness, etc.)