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> For me, anyone who eats pretend-meat or pretend-dairy is a pretend-vegan. I love that you can get all the taste without the violence and suffering. Eating is

• cheese_goddess 5y ago
  You're asking me whether I think two big-name vegans who make movies and give TED talks about veganism are pretend-vegans? For pushing pretend-animal products? Yes! Yes they are! It's like asking me if the Pope is a pretend-Christian for pushing pretend-faith and pretend-salvation if you just do what he says. Sure he is! You want to be like saint in the world and reduce harm? Then don't go baptising nut mush as "cheese" so you can enjoy what you have sworn off and are pontificating against, like the apocryphal stories of Catholic monks baptising their meat "fish" so they could eat it on Wednesday. Stop advertising meat and dairy with your actions, contrary to your words. Stick to your principles and then come to preach to me about mine.
  • wyattpeak 5y ago
    I was vegetarian for a while, and stopped because it turned out I wasn't willing to go without meat. Had really good meat substitutes existed at the time, things might very well have panned out differently, and I'd still be a vegetarian to this day. Lots of people try and fail to become vegetarians because they don't find the substitutes acceptable. If you consider it a purely personal issue it probably doesn't matter, but if you're interested in lowering global animal product consumption, then I think ideological purity is the more morally questionable position than trying to develop a product that can convince the world to take up veganism.
  • adt2bt 5y ago
    You’re attempting to redefine ‘pure’ veganism as consuming no animal nor animal-like products whatsoever. I can see where a word for that might exist, but what is commonly considered ‘vegan’ is not your definition.
    • cercatrova 5y ago
      > ‘pure’ veganism as consuming no animal nor animal-like products whatsoever Yes? This is what veganism is, is it not? Vegans don't eat animal products at all.
      • adt2bt 5y ago
        They can eat animal-like products though, such as Impossible burgers or nut cheese.
        • cercatrova 5y ago
          Well those can be argued as to not be animal-like at all, but plant-based. Similar to the point cheese_goddess is making here as well.
    • cheese_goddess 5y ago
      If vegans can redefine "cheese" then why can't I redefine "vegan"? You're saying that only vegans can distort commonly used terms to promulgate their beliefs? They can sell "vegan" cheese as propaganda for their ideals but I can't just say, well then, you're not vegan because you're eating cheese? Why not?
  • hjek 5y ago
    > pretend-vegans [...] For pushing pretend-animal products? I would agree that people who endorse pretend-vegan products are pretend-vegans. There are many products labelled as "veggie" that still contain egg, such as Quorn. But your logic fails by assuming pretend-meat = pretend-vegan. You don't kill anyone by playing Doom, just like you don't eat anyone when eating vegan nuggets. (Yes, there's an argument that violent games can lead to real-life violence, but are you really claiming that vegan meat-substitutes can cause harm by in some cases leading people to eat meat?) > You want to be like saint [...] Then don't go baptising [...] then come to preach to me about mine. I find it interesting how religious terms are used as an insult towards vegans. It's a very common and highly irrational defense-mechanism many carnists use when experiencing cognitive dissonance because of all the violence they're willingly and knowingly contributing to while also thinking of themselves as good people. > Stop advertising meat and dairy with your actions, contrary to your words. Stick to your principles and then come to preach to me about mine. The paradox here is this: The more you stick to your principles as a vegan, the more upset non-vegans can get, while simultaneously demanding that you do stick to your principles, because otherwise you're a hypocrite. I have heard these carnist proverbs before, and unfortunately they defy logic. For instance, regarding sticking to principles, I choose to not sit at a table where animals are eaten, even if there's also vegan food available. I do this to stop endorsing meat, which is what you're demanding, but no doubt such a stance would upset you as well. It's challenging to examine one's own beliefs. I've eaten too many animals myself. I hope you have a good day.
    • cheese_goddess 5y ago
      A lesson I learned early in life is this: just because someone is upset with what you're saying, doesn't mean your 're right, or that they're upset because you're right, or even that they're upset about what you think they are. For example, what I find annoying in your comment is the casual attribution of thoughts, emotions, morals and life experiences to me that you have no way to know I have. But you go ahead and make the assumption I do anyway and then triumphantly proclaim you defeated my "logic". For example, I am not a carnist. I don't even know what that is. I don't believe it's immoral to kill another animal to eat its meat. I don't believe it's immoral to kill another animal violently to eat its meat. Killing another animal requires violence that cannot be reduced to zero. And if you don't know what you're doing, you'll make matters worse because the animal will know what you're trying to do and then it'll try to run away and resist and cry for its mother. I know this very well. I know where my food comes from. I see my food running around when I look outside the window. I don't have any cognitive dissonance to work through. Maybe you've eaten too many animals. I'm prepared to bet you have, especially if you come from North America or Western Europe, where people eat way too much meat and don't really know what to do with food unless it has meat in it. I do not come from such a culture and I haven't eaten too many animals. Finally, I don't know how I'd react if you refused to sit at the same table as me because I'm eating meat. Probably, I'd think your'e a bit of an entitled prick, but be upset about it? Why? You're making too many assumptions about my motives and experiences, when all I've said is that if you are vegan then you should stick to your principles and not eat meat or dairy. Are those not your principles? Or are you the kind of vegan that's OK with eating meat and dairy?
• cheese_goddess 5y ago
  > I love that you can get all the taste without the violence and suffering. I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way. If you want nut paste to behave in a way that reminds of cheese, you have to stuff it full of gums and emulsifiers and stabilisers and all the additives that go into typical over-processed junk food. Cheese works the way it works because of a confluence of factors that developed over millions of years of evolution of mammals, and the bacteria that live in our guts and help us digest our food, including our mothers' milk. For example, did you know that cheese is made naturally in the stomachs of ruminants? When a young ruminant drinks its mother's milk, that milk ends up in the fourth stomach, the abomasum, where it is fermented by lactic acid bacteria and coagulated by proteolytic enzymes, pepsin and chymosin, and turns into cheese. I'm not sure why that is done so. Obviously the fermentation, that breaks down sugars, and the proteolysis, that breaks down proteins, helps the animal digest its milk, but why coagulate it also? One possible reason is that it helps the animal digest the milk slowly while it runs away from predators. The same processes are also in effect in the human stomach and while I'm not 100% sure about this, human babies likely also make cheese in their little stomachs. Bottom line is, cheese has evolved along with mammals over millions of years and there is no other process that we know that can create the same kind of substance. The vegan cheese substitutes we're discussing in this thread don't even come close. As to vegan "meat", that's just vegetables. Why do you need to eat vegetables and pretend to eat meat? In another comment you accuse me of cognitive dissonance, but what is the mental process that allows you to eat cauliflower and call it a steak? To me it sounds like self-dellusion, make-believe. But even if you really could reproduce the taste of meat and cheese "without the violence and suffering" as you say, then I'd think you just want to have your steak and eat it.
  • hjek 5y ago
    > I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way. Totally agree. It's not quite the same. I'm prepared to occasionally abstain from certain well-tasting foods or use a less-than-perfect substitute out of solidarity with farmed animals and out of care for the planet. It's a trade-off. I agree. > As to vegan "meat", that's just vegetables. Yea, exactly. And sometimes mushrooms. > Why do you need to eat vegetables and pretend to eat meat? It's a good question. I think it's a bit more complex than pretending to eat meat. For me, personally, it's more about reclaiming certain dishes that we usually consider meat-based but that don't have to be, such as burgers and hotdogs. For those who've just seen Cowspiracy or Earthlings and start to realize how harmful industrial animal agriculture is but also "can't live without their cheese and their meat", those meat substitutes are perfect. They substitute the taste but not the harm. They can make a zero-effort switch without changing any habits or learning to cook new dishes. It's the best of both worlds. I love that 7-Eleven has started selling vegan hotdogs here. You get the choice of buying a delicious hotdog without having to worry about eating the body of someone who've been driven around in crowded trucks to then have their brains shot out with a pressure gun or being gassed. To me, it seems like self-delusion to buy the murder-hotdogs when the vegan ones are available.