8 ms·

Interesting that Apple still uses Broadcom Wi-Fi + BT chips in most of their product range despite lots of issues with them. Apple Watch nowadays is using Appl

by my123 6y ago

Interesting that Apple still uses Broadcom Wi-Fi + BT chips in most of their product range despite lots of issues with them. Apple Watch nowadays is using Apple (codenamed Marconi) Wi-Fi + BT chips, hopefully they'll switch all their product lineup to those.

relevant_thing 6y ago
Are those from Infineon->Intel->Apple modem lineage or is that a different team?
- AceJohnny2 6y ago
  I think the acquisition of the Intel modem group is too recent to have been integrated into the Apple watch
  - sroussey 6y ago
    Why would they have not used them before the acquisition?
    - my123 6y ago
      Apple Watch uses Intel IBIS or Qualcomm cellular modems depending on model (for those with cellular). Wi-Fi/BT is handled separately by Apple-designed chips for the newer ones.
    - gumby 6y ago
      One of the recent phones (X or 11?) used Intel for part of its builds (as far as I remember you couldn’t tell from serial number). Apple had a lot of problems and swore off the Intel parts, which killed Intel’s wireless business. I assumed Apple bought the Intel product line for IP, especially after that episode.
      - jerrysievert 6y ago
        the iPhone 7 used the intel wireless chip. it was a major downgrade for me from my iPhone 6 at the time: speeds were lower for data transfers, and reception was less (could be attributed to an antenna change?) overall, I was very happy to get a phone that didn't use the intel chips.
      - kalleboo 6y ago
        Apple used Intel modems for many generations - the iPhone 7, X/8, XS, 11. For some generations they used Qualcomm chips in the models for CDMA regions since Intel didn't make a CDMA modem. So you could tell which chip you'd get from the iPhone model number. Apple ditched Intel due to Intel being at least a year behind on 5G. These modems were all LTE modems though. They've always used separate Broadcom chips for WiFi/Bluetooth.
        TwoBit 6y ago
        > due to Intel being at least a year behind That's not the only thing Intel is at least a year behind on.
        Reason077 6y ago
        > "For some generations they used Qualcomm chips in the models for CDMA regions since Intel didn't make a CDMA modem." Yeah. The Qualcomm-equipped international version of the iPhone X notoriously got significantly better LTE speeds compared to the Intel-modem version sold in UK/Europe.
      - reader_mode 6y ago
        >which killed Intel’s wireless business I was under the impression that modern laptops ship with intel WiFi cards (I think I saw some Lenovo laptop use it). Do you mean it killed their modems ?
        wumpus 6y ago
        WiFi and cellphones are both wireless, but this discussion is about cellphones.
- GloriousKoji 6y ago
  I'll just leave this old 2012 article link here. https://www.macrumors.com/2012/12/03/apple-hiring-former-texas-instruments-engineers-in-israel/ https://www.macrumors.com/2012/12/03/apple-hiring-former-tex...
- my123 6y ago
  For Wi-Fi/BT, it's an Apple team separate from modem efforts.
anitil 6y ago
What are the issue with Broadcom chips?
- SilverRed 6y ago
  Not sure about OP but the hardest part about getting linux on a macbook is getting wifi to work because there are no FOSS drivers.
  - zodiakzz 6y ago
    Genuinely curious, is it harder than getting Linux working with the proprietary Apple variant of ARM? Or are you talking pre-M1?
    - ben-schaaf 6y ago
      The M1 still uses a broadcom wifi chip: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669358 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669358, so presumably because it's a newer chip it'll be more difficult.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - notaplumber 6y ago
    Sure there are, it's called brcmfmac. If the AsahiLinux team hasn't already got it working, certainly Corellium did a few months ago in their much hyped public demo image. https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/brcm80211 https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/brcm80211 OpenBSD has also added support to their bwfm(4) driver already for 6.9. Wireless is absolutely not the hardest problem for the M1 Mac, or running on any Mac, for that matter.
    - IntelMiner 6y ago
      Broadcom Wi-Fi languished for something around a decade under the "b43" driver before Broadcom showed up with their brcmfmac driver, it caused significant anger within the kernel community that they decided to write a new driver instead of just augmenting the existing one
totetsu 6y ago
Marconi is named after inventor of the radio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Marconi?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Marconi?wprov=sfla1
- QuercusMax 6y ago
  I know it's not pronounced like that in Italian, but I always read his name as "Googly-Elmo" Marconi.
  - ndesaulniers 6y ago
    Wow. I can't unsee that.
    - wumpus 6y ago
      That just wrecked my ability to say the name of a prominent 15th century Italian dance master. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Ebreo_da_Pesaro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Ebreo_da_Pesaro
      - duckfang 6y ago
        I've always been more of a Caroso fan, especially his second treatise. I've even learned Alegrezza d'amore from both his first and second works and did them back to back :) Then again, Petit Riens is my favorite danes of Pesaro's... I call it mosh pit riens given how rowdy it can be!
        wumpus 6y ago
        Yeah, but "Fabritio" can't measure up to "Googly-Elmo"! Fabric Cheeto? Febreze Cheeto? BTW Allegrezza d'Amore is also in Santucci. Happy to send you a translation.
        duckfang 6y ago
ksec 6y ago
>Apple Watch nowadays is using Apple (codenamed Marconi) Wi-Fi + BT chips, hopefully they'll switch all their product lineup to those. Apple has renewed their WiFI commitment to Broadcom for at least another 3 years. Marking WiFI, or in fact any Wireless Controller is hard, making it that is also a moving target ( Both WiFi 6E/ WiFi 7 and 5G / 3GPP Rel 17 ) is even harder. But if Apple do intend to make their own WiFi ( Which makes perfect sense from an BOM cost reduction perspective ), please also bring back AirPort Wireless Router.
daat678 6y ago
Would you have a link or article discussing this Marconi project? I’m always interested in Apple’s wireless chips designs. A web search brings me back to this thread.
- my123 6y ago
  https://gist.github.com/woachk/943828f37c14563a607a26116435bf27 https://gist.github.com/woachk/943828f37c14563a607a26116435b... includes some tiny tidbits on it. The firmware can be extracted out of an IPSW/OTA download, where it is present in the Firmware directory.
  - daat678 6y ago
    Great thanks I'll check it out

by my123 6y ago

relevant_thing 6y ago

Are those from Infineon->Intel->Apple modem lineage or is that a different team?

AceJohnny2 6y ago
I think the acquisition of the Intel modem group is too recent to have been integrated into the Apple watch
- sroussey 6y ago
  Why would they have not used them before the acquisition?
  - my123 6y ago
    Apple Watch uses Intel IBIS or Qualcomm cellular modems depending on model (for those with cellular). Wi-Fi/BT is handled separately by Apple-designed chips for the newer ones.
  - gumby 6y ago
    One of the recent phones (X or 11?) used Intel for part of its builds (as far as I remember you couldn’t tell from serial number). Apple had a lot of problems and swore off the Intel parts, which killed Intel’s wireless business. I assumed Apple bought the Intel product line for IP, especially after that episode.
    - jerrysievert 6y ago
      the iPhone 7 used the intel wireless chip. it was a major downgrade for me from my iPhone 6 at the time: speeds were lower for data transfers, and reception was less (could be attributed to an antenna change?) overall, I was very happy to get a phone that didn't use the intel chips.
    - kalleboo 6y ago
      Apple used Intel modems for many generations - the iPhone 7, X/8, XS, 11. For some generations they used Qualcomm chips in the models for CDMA regions since Intel didn't make a CDMA modem. So you could tell which chip you'd get from the iPhone model number. Apple ditched Intel due to Intel being at least a year behind on 5G. These modems were all LTE modems though. They've always used separate Broadcom chips for WiFi/Bluetooth.
      - TwoBit 6y ago
        > due to Intel being at least a year behind That's not the only thing Intel is at least a year behind on.
      - Reason077 6y ago
        > "For some generations they used Qualcomm chips in the models for CDMA regions since Intel didn't make a CDMA modem." Yeah. The Qualcomm-equipped international version of the iPhone X notoriously got significantly better LTE speeds compared to the Intel-modem version sold in UK/Europe.
    - reader_mode 6y ago
      >which killed Intel’s wireless business I was under the impression that modern laptops ship with intel WiFi cards (I think I saw some Lenovo laptop use it). Do you mean it killed their modems ?
      - wumpus 6y ago
        WiFi and cellphones are both wireless, but this discussion is about cellphones.
GloriousKoji 6y ago
I'll just leave this old 2012 article link here. https://www.macrumors.com/2012/12/03/apple-hiring-former-texas-instruments-engineers-in-israel/ https://www.macrumors.com/2012/12/03/apple-hiring-former-tex...
my123 6y ago
For Wi-Fi/BT, it's an Apple team separate from modem efforts.

anitil 6y ago

What are the issue with Broadcom chips?

SilverRed 6y ago
Not sure about OP but the hardest part about getting linux on a macbook is getting wifi to work because there are no FOSS drivers.
- zodiakzz 6y ago
  Genuinely curious, is it harder than getting Linux working with the proprietary Apple variant of ARM? Or are you talking pre-M1?
  - ben-schaaf 6y ago
    The M1 still uses a broadcom wifi chip: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669358 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669358, so presumably because it's a newer chip it'll be more difficult.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- notaplumber 6y ago
  Sure there are, it's called brcmfmac. If the AsahiLinux team hasn't already got it working, certainly Corellium did a few months ago in their much hyped public demo image. https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/brcm80211 https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/brcm80211 OpenBSD has also added support to their bwfm(4) driver already for 6.9. Wireless is absolutely not the hardest problem for the M1 Mac, or running on any Mac, for that matter.
  - IntelMiner 6y ago
    Broadcom Wi-Fi languished for something around a decade under the "b43" driver before Broadcom showed up with their brcmfmac driver, it caused significant anger within the kernel community that they decided to write a new driver instead of just augmenting the existing one

totetsu 6y ago

Marconi is named after inventor of the radio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Marconi?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Marconi?wprov=sfla1

QuercusMax 6y ago
I know it's not pronounced like that in Italian, but I always read his name as "Googly-Elmo" Marconi.
- ndesaulniers 6y ago
  Wow. I can't unsee that.
  - wumpus 6y ago
    That just wrecked my ability to say the name of a prominent 15th century Italian dance master. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Ebreo_da_Pesaro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Ebreo_da_Pesaro
    - duckfang 6y ago
      I've always been more of a Caroso fan, especially his second treatise. I've even learned Alegrezza d'amore from both his first and second works and did them back to back :) Then again, Petit Riens is my favorite danes of Pesaro's... I call it mosh pit riens given how rowdy it can be!
      - wumpus 6y ago
        Yeah, but "Fabritio" can't measure up to "Googly-Elmo"! Fabric Cheeto? Febreze Cheeto? BTW Allegrezza d'Amore is also in Santucci. Happy to send you a translation.
        duckfang 6y ago

ksec 6y ago

>Apple Watch nowadays is using Apple (codenamed Marconi) Wi-Fi + BT chips, hopefully they'll switch all their product lineup to those. Apple has renewed their WiFI commitment to Broadcom for at least another 3 years. Marking WiFI, or in fact any Wireless Controller is hard, making it that is also a moving target ( Both WiFi 6E/ WiFi 7 and 5G / 3GPP Rel 17 ) is even harder. But if Apple do intend to make their own WiFi ( Which makes perfect sense from an BOM cost reduction perspective ), please also bring back AirPort Wireless Router.

daat678 6y ago

Would you have a link or article discussing this Marconi project? I’m always interested in Apple’s wireless chips designs. A web search brings me back to this thread.

my123 6y ago
https://gist.github.com/woachk/943828f37c14563a607a26116435bf27 https://gist.github.com/woachk/943828f37c14563a607a26116435b... includes some tiny tidbits on it. The firmware can be extracted out of an IPSW/OTA download, where it is present in the Firmware directory.
- daat678 6y ago
  Great thanks I'll check it out