4 ms·

I think a more accurate way of framing it is "Menthols have been targeted specifically to black people, and also, they're even more harmful than regular cigaret

I think a more accurate way of framing it is "Menthols have been targeted specifically to black people, and also, they're even more harmful than regular cigarettes". It's definitely not "let's take this away because black people like it".

ketzo 5y ago
That’s actually a solid point. There’s extra responsibility to prevent harm to specific groups when the harm has been targeted at them specifically. And yeah, I know that’s not actually the message. But as I read it, “banning menthols because they disproportionately harm underrepresented groups” is not so semantically different from the other version. I mostly think it’s an area where we should all have our eyes peeled, basically. Like I said, I’m fully in agreement with this decision. Just hits my “maybe weird?” radar.
__blockcipher__ 5y ago
How are menthol cigarettes more harmful than regular ones? The menthol just makes it easier to smoke more. Is that the crux of your argument? I find the “company X is targeting [arbitrary subcategory]” argument to be totally asinine btw. Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines? Lastly there is nothing more patronizing than telling a black person that you’re preventing them from buying menthol cigarettes for their own good. Man I hate the whole “safety culture” crowd. I find it such an insufferable ideology. But then again I’m explicitly not a collectivist so that’s par for the course.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  > Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines? LOL are they really doing that? That's funny considering that obesity and diabetes are both risk factors for poor COVID-19 outcomes.
  - __blockcipher__ 5y ago
    Welcome to the new world ;) https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/free-food-vaccine-deals-for-vaccinated-people-covid-vaccines-budweiser-beer/10544130/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/free-food-vaccin... You actually get a donut per day! The foundation of a healthy diet.
  - seriousquestion 5y ago
    Yes, and blue checks on Twitter thought it was great. Meanwhile, 78% of the people hospitalized for Covid-19 are overweight or obese; https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughl...
    - MiddleEndian 5y ago
      >78% of the people hospitalized for Covid-19 are overweight or obese https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm >Percent of adults aged 20 and over with overweight, including obesity: 73.6% (2017-2018) Since COVID targets older people more often, this may match the adult population within these groups, as the population becomes more overweight each year and people get heavier and slightly shorter as they age.
- garciasn 5y ago
  https://jag.journalagent.com/tkd/pdfs/TKDA_37_4_234_240.pdf https://jag.journalagent.com/tkd/pdfs/TKDA_37_4_234_240.pdf From the paper: Its cooling effect may contribute to the intensity of smoking (deeper inhalation and/or more prolonged breath holding) resulting in greater exposure to tobacco smoke toxins. The effect of menthol through increasing the permeability of cell membranes results in a greater absorption of smoked toxins [2,3] Ahijevych and Garrett[2] reported higher cotinine levels in mentholated cigarettes compared to nonmentholated cigarettes, suggesting greater nicotine absorption per cigarette. Clarke et al.[3] found that mentholated cigarette smoking was associated with higher serum cotinine and carbon monoxide levels per cigarette.
  - __blockcipher__ 5y ago
    Thanks for the citation. I should mention I oppose these bans regardless of whether menthol really is or isn’t dangerous, but interesting to know it increases cellular permeability. And seems like a good bit of increased heart/cardiac effects.
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  > How are menthol cigarettes more harmful than regular ones? The menthol just makes it easier to smoke more. Is that the crux of your argument? It gives more pleasure so it hooks you on more. So yes, it’s more harmful, no? When I was smoking cigarettes back in the day, my fav was West Ice. They tasted really good and didn’t have bad aftertaste. It was easier to smoke more and smoke one only for the menthol taste.
- Jiocus 5y ago
  Menthol enhances nicotine delivery by altering nicotine metabolism. Menthol also interact with nicotine nACh receptors in the brain in various ways[1]. [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720998/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720998/
chmod600 5y ago
When paternalistic policies are directed at particular demographics, it is kinda disturbing. I mean, sure, there's a reason. But there always is, and it makes me wonder if a line is being crossed here that will set a bad precedent.
- __blockcipher__ 5y ago
  We’re about a couple months away from being told that opposing mandatory vaccination is racist because more black people die from COVID-19. (I mean that seriously not as a joke...although there is some natural humor in it as well)
- pradn 5y ago
  The original harm was caused by tobacco corps targeting a particular demographic. Rectifying this wrong requires targeting that demographic, but it's not unsettling. Moreover, they have banned all the other flavors, so might as well finish the job with this one.
- LargeWu 5y ago
  The entire "paternalistic" argument rests on the premise that the choice to smoke, or not, is for most people purely rational, and totally discounts the predatory nature of tobacco companies and the addiction that comes with it. Menthols are targeted at blacks, and especially black children, since the menthol flavoring makes them more pleasant to smoke. Of the 20 million American menthol smokers, 17 million of those are black. That's not by accident, it's intentional.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    There are only 42 million black people in the US. Are you really saying that 40% of black Americans smoke menthols specifically? And presumably some percentage smoke something without menthol? That doesn't seem right.
    - LeifCarrotson 5y ago
      You do have to be careful with your groupings. I wonder if this isn't a confusion between the number of cigarettes smoked by a particular population and the number of people from each population who smoke, or something like that. I'm not sure where the number '20 million menthol users' keeps coming from, perhaps somewhere in the data behind [1]? Regardless, [2] and [3] suggest that somewhere around 20% of the African American population smokes tobacco in some form. Among those 20% of black Americans who smoke about 85% use menthols. [1] https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/cbhsq-reports/NSDUHNationalFindingsReport2018/NSDUHNationalFindingsReport2018.htm#tobacco https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/cbhsq-report... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/in... [3] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/in...
sadgrip 5y ago
Sorry but where is the harm reduction for everyone else's race? Doesn't seem like it's a priority since the people in powerful also enjoy those vices. It's a bit coincidental that the races with less power also have the vices that they need to be protected by. My family is Mexican and they love tequila. I can guarantee you that if it was banned they'd all drink less alcohol and would be much less of a burden on our healthcare system. Somehow I'm yet to see a suggested ban of flavored Smirnoffs because it's turning our white college students into alcoholics.
- adamdusty 5y ago
  I'm not going to argue for or against the ban, but tobacco companies specifically targeted african-americans to use them and the civil rights movement to defend industry policy. Mexicans like tequila because it's made from agave which is easy to grow in the desert. Mexicans have loved tequila since before europeans even landed in mexico.
throwawayboise 5y ago
Black people couldn't possibly make their own decisions on whether they want to smoke, or what flavor of cigarettes they prefer. They need the white people running the FDA to protect them.

ketzo 5y ago

That’s actually a solid point. There’s extra responsibility to prevent harm to specific groups when the harm has been targeted at them specifically. And yeah, I know that’s not actually the message. But as I read it, “banning menthols because they disproportionately harm underrepresented groups” is not so semantically different from the other version. I mostly think it’s an area where we should all have our eyes peeled, basically. Like I said, I’m fully in agreement with this decision. Just hits my “maybe weird?” radar.

__blockcipher__ 5y ago

How are menthol cigarettes more harmful than regular ones? The menthol just makes it easier to smoke more. Is that the crux of your argument? I find the “company X is targeting [arbitrary subcategory]” argument to be totally asinine btw. Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines? Lastly there is nothing more patronizing than telling a black person that you’re preventing them from buying menthol cigarettes for their own good. Man I hate the whole “safety culture” crowd. I find it such an insufferable ideology. But then again I’m explicitly not a collectivist so that’s par for the course.

throwawayboise 5y ago
> Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines? LOL are they really doing that? That's funny considering that obesity and diabetes are both risk factors for poor COVID-19 outcomes.
- __blockcipher__ 5y ago
  Welcome to the new world ;) https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/free-food-vaccine-deals-for-vaccinated-people-covid-vaccines-budweiser-beer/10544130/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/free-food-vaccin... You actually get a donut per day! The foundation of a healthy diet.
- seriousquestion 5y ago
  Yes, and blue checks on Twitter thought it was great. Meanwhile, 78% of the people hospitalized for Covid-19 are overweight or obese; https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughl...
  - MiddleEndian 5y ago
    >78% of the people hospitalized for Covid-19 are overweight or obese https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm >Percent of adults aged 20 and over with overweight, including obesity: 73.6% (2017-2018) Since COVID targets older people more often, this may match the adult population within these groups, as the population becomes more overweight each year and people get heavier and slightly shorter as they age.
garciasn 5y ago
https://jag.journalagent.com/tkd/pdfs/TKDA_37_4_234_240.pdf https://jag.journalagent.com/tkd/pdfs/TKDA_37_4_234_240.pdf From the paper: Its cooling effect may contribute to the intensity of smoking (deeper inhalation and/or more prolonged breath holding) resulting in greater exposure to tobacco smoke toxins. The effect of menthol through increasing the permeability of cell membranes results in a greater absorption of smoked toxins [2,3] Ahijevych and Garrett[2] reported higher cotinine levels in mentholated cigarettes compared to nonmentholated cigarettes, suggesting greater nicotine absorption per cigarette. Clarke et al.[3] found that mentholated cigarette smoking was associated with higher serum cotinine and carbon monoxide levels per cigarette.
- __blockcipher__ 5y ago
  Thanks for the citation. I should mention I oppose these bans regardless of whether menthol really is or isn’t dangerous, but interesting to know it increases cellular permeability. And seems like a good bit of increased heart/cardiac effects.
rad_gruchalski 5y ago
> How are menthol cigarettes more harmful than regular ones? The menthol just makes it easier to smoke more. Is that the crux of your argument? It gives more pleasure so it hooks you on more. So yes, it’s more harmful, no? When I was smoking cigarettes back in the day, my fav was West Ice. They tasted really good and didn’t have bad aftertaste. It was easier to smoke more and smoke one only for the menthol taste.
Jiocus 5y ago
Menthol enhances nicotine delivery by altering nicotine metabolism. Menthol also interact with nicotine nACh receptors in the brain in various ways[1]. [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720998/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720998/

chmod600 5y ago

When paternalistic policies are directed at particular demographics, it is kinda disturbing. I mean, sure, there's a reason. But there always is, and it makes me wonder if a line is being crossed here that will set a bad precedent.

__blockcipher__ 5y ago
We’re about a couple months away from being told that opposing mandatory vaccination is racist because more black people die from COVID-19. (I mean that seriously not as a joke...although there is some natural humor in it as well)
pradn 5y ago
The original harm was caused by tobacco corps targeting a particular demographic. Rectifying this wrong requires targeting that demographic, but it's not unsettling. Moreover, they have banned all the other flavors, so might as well finish the job with this one.
LargeWu 5y ago
The entire "paternalistic" argument rests on the premise that the choice to smoke, or not, is for most people purely rational, and totally discounts the predatory nature of tobacco companies and the addiction that comes with it. Menthols are targeted at blacks, and especially black children, since the menthol flavoring makes them more pleasant to smoke. Of the 20 million American menthol smokers, 17 million of those are black. That's not by accident, it's intentional.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  There are only 42 million black people in the US. Are you really saying that 40% of black Americans smoke menthols specifically? And presumably some percentage smoke something without menthol? That doesn't seem right.
  - LeifCarrotson 5y ago
    You do have to be careful with your groupings. I wonder if this isn't a confusion between the number of cigarettes smoked by a particular population and the number of people from each population who smoke, or something like that. I'm not sure where the number '20 million menthol users' keeps coming from, perhaps somewhere in the data behind [1]? Regardless, [2] and [3] suggest that somewhere around 20% of the African American population smokes tobacco in some form. Among those 20% of black Americans who smoke about 85% use menthols. [1] https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/cbhsq-reports/NSDUHNationalFindingsReport2018/NSDUHNationalFindingsReport2018.htm#tobacco https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/cbhsq-report... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/in... [3] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/in...

sadgrip 5y ago

Sorry but where is the harm reduction for everyone else's race? Doesn't seem like it's a priority since the people in powerful also enjoy those vices. It's a bit coincidental that the races with less power also have the vices that they need to be protected by. My family is Mexican and they love tequila. I can guarantee you that if it was banned they'd all drink less alcohol and would be much less of a burden on our healthcare system. Somehow I'm yet to see a suggested ban of flavored Smirnoffs because it's turning our white college students into alcoholics.

adamdusty 5y ago
I'm not going to argue for or against the ban, but tobacco companies specifically targeted african-americans to use them and the civil rights movement to defend industry policy. Mexicans like tequila because it's made from agave which is easy to grow in the desert. Mexicans have loved tequila since before europeans even landed in mexico.

throwawayboise 5y ago

Black people couldn't possibly make their own decisions on whether they want to smoke, or what flavor of cigarettes they prefer. They need the white people running the FDA to protect them.