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I'm not sure which is the greater chilling effect, the way downvoting works out in practice on this site, or having the site moderator dismiss you as "sneer"ing

I'm not sure which is the greater chilling effect, the way downvoting works out in practice on this site, or having the site moderator dismiss you as "sneer"ing and being "snarky" if you openly acknowledge the downvote's chilling effect.

oblio 6y ago
Downvotes on HN are capped at -4. Go to Reddit and notice it's unbounded.
saagarjha 6y ago
The comment seemed fairly reasonable until that last bit, which was unnecessary. I felt the moderation to be appropriate in that context.
dang 6y ago
Your GP comment is an example both of what we're trying for on HN and what we're trying to avoid. The first two paragraphs are fine, on topic, and make a good argument. The third paragraph goes into snark and resentment, and ends up in reductio ad meta. Your post would be strictly better with just the first two paragraphs. Is that so hard to see? As for chilling effects, I wish we could chill the latter kind of stuff more effectively, or better yet, freeze it out—it would make this site remarkably better. Maybe the most common quality-degrading thing people do in HN comments is to resentfully represent oneself (or one's view) as the unfairly excluded underdog, the noble freethinker surrounded by a deranged mob, striving heroically to hold up the truth for a brief moment before the rabble crushes them. This simultaneously supercilious and victimish pose is something people do on all sides of every topic. I'd like this community to get a little more conscious about how badly it degrades the threads. That's the intention behind the guideline, "Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. Perhaps we can find a better wording that will make this clearer. I don't mean to pick on you personally! It's extremely common, as I said, and the purpose of these moderation replies is not to scold (and certainly not to shame) individual commenters, but to try to shift the culture another notch in the direction of interesting discussion, which is what we're all here for.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  I don't feel picked on. However, I do think that the way that downvoting works in online communities deserves some examination. And, given the basic structure of how HN works, community members don't really have a clear way to discuss it except by complaining about it in comments like these. Which isn't the best way. But still. "Freezing it out", as you say, has the effect of shutting that conversation down completely, which I think is potentially harmful to the long-term quality of the discourse, and in a way that is rather more insidious than the rather more banal quality problem that you're trying to guard against. In particular, the ever-present threat of getting voted down to -5 for presenting an idea that goes against the popular opinion presents a strong disincentive to share opinions, particularly for less thick-skinned individuals. And it creates a constant low-grade anxiety for some contributors. Pre-emptively complaining about the downvote is one symptom of this effect, but it's not the only one. Others, less visible, symptoms are that people just don't share their opinions at all, or don't share them as thoroughly or eloquently, when they're worried that doing so might result in the electronic equivalent of a smackdown. And the fact that this phenomenon affects certain people more than others does put a spin on the conversations that take place on Hacker News. Not necessarily one that has the effect of elevating the quality of discourse over the long run.
  - dang 6y ago
    Well, that's a pretty decent reply. In any case, we can't freeze it out, so if you're right about how bad that would be, at least we're escaping that particular fate.
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      I wasn't meaning to say that your efforts at freezing out conversation about the downvote are having that effect. I'm saying that's the effect of the (current) downvoting mechanic itself. What you're trying to freeze out is people expressing, however indirectly, a legitimate concern about the social environment being created by the current mechanics of the site. In other words, I think you're being a bit too quick to the trigger to dismiss these sorts of comments as just being boring conversation. My impression is that they're actually a rather banal tip to a much more consequential iceberg. You can't see the rest of it because it concerns things that are mostly happening out of view, out in meatspace, and typically only manifest themselves indirectly in what's happening on Hacker News. Especially if you're trying to "freeze out" the more direct manifestations.

oblio 6y ago

Downvotes on HN are capped at -4. Go to Reddit and notice it's unbounded.

saagarjha 6y ago

The comment seemed fairly reasonable until that last bit, which was unnecessary. I felt the moderation to be appropriate in that context.

dang 6y ago

Your GP comment is an example both of what we're trying for on HN and what we're trying to avoid. The first two paragraphs are fine, on topic, and make a good argument. The third paragraph goes into snark and resentment, and ends up in reductio ad meta. Your post would be strictly better with just the first two paragraphs. Is that so hard to see? As for chilling effects, I wish we could chill the latter kind of stuff more effectively, or better yet, freeze it out—it would make this site remarkably better. Maybe the most common quality-degrading thing people do in HN comments is to resentfully represent oneself (or one's view) as the unfairly excluded underdog, the noble freethinker surrounded by a deranged mob, striving heroically to hold up the truth for a brief moment before the rabble crushes them. This simultaneously supercilious and victimish pose is something people do on all sides of every topic. I'd like this community to get a little more conscious about how badly it degrades the threads. That's the intention behind the guideline, "Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. Perhaps we can find a better wording that will make this clearer. I don't mean to pick on you personally! It's extremely common, as I said, and the purpose of these moderation replies is not to scold (and certainly not to shame) individual commenters, but to try to shift the culture another notch in the direction of interesting discussion, which is what we're all here for.

mumblemumble 6y ago
I don't feel picked on. However, I do think that the way that downvoting works in online communities deserves some examination. And, given the basic structure of how HN works, community members don't really have a clear way to discuss it except by complaining about it in comments like these. Which isn't the best way. But still. "Freezing it out", as you say, has the effect of shutting that conversation down completely, which I think is potentially harmful to the long-term quality of the discourse, and in a way that is rather more insidious than the rather more banal quality problem that you're trying to guard against. In particular, the ever-present threat of getting voted down to -5 for presenting an idea that goes against the popular opinion presents a strong disincentive to share opinions, particularly for less thick-skinned individuals. And it creates a constant low-grade anxiety for some contributors. Pre-emptively complaining about the downvote is one symptom of this effect, but it's not the only one. Others, less visible, symptoms are that people just don't share their opinions at all, or don't share them as thoroughly or eloquently, when they're worried that doing so might result in the electronic equivalent of a smackdown. And the fact that this phenomenon affects certain people more than others does put a spin on the conversations that take place on Hacker News. Not necessarily one that has the effect of elevating the quality of discourse over the long run.
- dang 6y ago
  Well, that's a pretty decent reply. In any case, we can't freeze it out, so if you're right about how bad that would be, at least we're escaping that particular fate.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    I wasn't meaning to say that your efforts at freezing out conversation about the downvote are having that effect. I'm saying that's the effect of the (current) downvoting mechanic itself. What you're trying to freeze out is people expressing, however indirectly, a legitimate concern about the social environment being created by the current mechanics of the site. In other words, I think you're being a bit too quick to the trigger to dismiss these sorts of comments as just being boring conversation. My impression is that they're actually a rather banal tip to a much more consequential iceberg. You can't see the rest of it because it concerns things that are mostly happening out of view, out in meatspace, and typically only manifest themselves indirectly in what's happening on Hacker News. Especially if you're trying to "freeze out" the more direct manifestations.