5 ms·

Couldn't agree more. If it were up to me, we'd get rid of the minimum wage, let employers pay whatever they want, and then provide UBI to make sure people have

Couldn't agree more. If it were up to me, we'd get rid of the minimum wage, let employers pay whatever they want, and then provide UBI to make sure people have their basic needs fulfilled. We came up with this agreement as a society that people should be able to survive and have their basic needs met, and then we forced businesses to actually make it happen through minimum wage (and to a lesser degree insurance, pre-Obamacare). If we came up with it as a society, our society (as represented by our elected government) should be the one actually charged with making that agreement a reality.

stjohnswarts 6y ago
The problem with this is that corps basically have full knowledge of the market, what they can afford, how much they can pay overall, but employees know none of that. That's were the minimum wage comes in to provide a floor. I know that in your scenario that UBI covers that, but if UBI is equivalent to 40hrs of $15 an hour a LOT of people aren't going to do anything other than play vidya games all day as the rest of us support their addiction.
- chongli 6y ago
  Let them play video games! By exiting the labour market, they force employers to pay more for the people actually willing to work. This is the main idea behind UBI: instead of forcing people to work undesirable jobs just to feed themselves and then forcing employers to pay a minimum wage for those jobs, we feed people directly and let the market decide how much to pay for those shitty jobs.
  - 29083011397778 5y ago
    > By exiting the labour market, they force employers to pay more for the people actually willing to work I suspect this instead leads to companies determining "nobody is willing to work at the prices we're happy to pay. Therefore there is a labour shortage; we need more immigrants, and we're happy enough to sponser them for a time" Note they don't raise prices, they instead increase the applicant pool.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
      I, for one, have gone through extended periods of willful unemployment with the good graces of some very caring friends. I didn't not want to work, but I did want a job that valued and compensated me fairly. Most companies do not do either. We can argue about cause and effect, but I suspect a lot of the problem is the failure of government to intervene in the disconnection of productivity and wages. We probably won't be cutting million dollar checks to parents and children as restitution for this theft, but we should right this wrong systematically by giving the workers the vast majority of the profits their labor creates. Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime, that's why I shit on company time. If I got paid fairly and had a seat at the table for discussions about profit sharing then I would plan my shits to not impede my work. Until then, big capital can keep blowing their hot air, workers don't care what these suits think and are realizing the suits don't even care about the health of safety of the workers themselves, let alone their ability to afford a family or house.
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    The purpose of an economy is to allocate resources and ensure maximum employment doing useful things. If UBI helps people do useful things like caregiving or job training, then it has achieved something. If UBI just causes less (useful) work to get done, then it is a net harm to society. Maybe it's good if it shifts investment towards automation that eventually improves productivity. For example, if paying Uber drivers becomes less attractive, maybe researching self-driving or investing in mass transit becomes more attractive; maybe that's good. But things still need to get done, and money by itself doesn't do anything. In the extreme case you end up like Kuwait, where citizens get (in that case oil) UBI, and guest workers outside the UBI system do all the actual work. The US could do that, and it might reduce inequality among US citizens, but new outgroups would become painfully apparent.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

The problem with this is that corps basically have full knowledge of the market, what they can afford, how much they can pay overall, but employees know none of that. That's were the minimum wage comes in to provide a floor. I know that in your scenario that UBI covers that, but if UBI is equivalent to 40hrs of $15 an hour a LOT of people aren't going to do anything other than play vidya games all day as the rest of us support their addiction.

chongli 6y ago
Let them play video games! By exiting the labour market, they force employers to pay more for the people actually willing to work. This is the main idea behind UBI: instead of forcing people to work undesirable jobs just to feed themselves and then forcing employers to pay a minimum wage for those jobs, we feed people directly and let the market decide how much to pay for those shitty jobs.
- 29083011397778 5y ago
  > By exiting the labour market, they force employers to pay more for the people actually willing to work I suspect this instead leads to companies determining "nobody is willing to work at the prices we're happy to pay. Therefore there is a labour shortage; we need more immigrants, and we're happy enough to sponser them for a time" Note they don't raise prices, they instead increase the applicant pool.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
    I, for one, have gone through extended periods of willful unemployment with the good graces of some very caring friends. I didn't not want to work, but I did want a job that valued and compensated me fairly. Most companies do not do either. We can argue about cause and effect, but I suspect a lot of the problem is the failure of government to intervene in the disconnection of productivity and wages. We probably won't be cutting million dollar checks to parents and children as restitution for this theft, but we should right this wrong systematically by giving the workers the vast majority of the profits their labor creates. Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime, that's why I shit on company time. If I got paid fairly and had a seat at the table for discussions about profit sharing then I would plan my shits to not impede my work. Until then, big capital can keep blowing their hot air, workers don't care what these suits think and are realizing the suits don't even care about the health of safety of the workers themselves, let alone their ability to afford a family or house.
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  The purpose of an economy is to allocate resources and ensure maximum employment doing useful things. If UBI helps people do useful things like caregiving or job training, then it has achieved something. If UBI just causes less (useful) work to get done, then it is a net harm to society. Maybe it's good if it shifts investment towards automation that eventually improves productivity. For example, if paying Uber drivers becomes less attractive, maybe researching self-driving or investing in mass transit becomes more attractive; maybe that's good. But things still need to get done, and money by itself doesn't do anything. In the extreme case you end up like Kuwait, where citizens get (in that case oil) UBI, and guest workers outside the UBI system do all the actual work. The US could do that, and it might reduce inequality among US citizens, but new outgroups would become painfully apparent.