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Less expensive? not by much is my bet: Amsterdam is the most expensive city in Holland and one of the more expensive ones in Europe (Scandinavian countries + Lo

Less expensive? not by much is my bet: Amsterdam is the most expensive city in Holland and one of the more expensive ones in Europe (Scandinavian countries + London may be worse is my estimate). It's also impossible to find housing. As far as immigration is concerned, one can fall under the category "kennis-migranten" (loosely translated as knowledge-workers) pretty easily, as long as the company sponsoring you is willing to pay the money, around 50K (Pay is not like the Valley, but I'm guessing this is doable). There is the possibility of starting a company as an American citizen due to a WW2-era Dutch-American Friendship treaty (see http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm) As far as startups I know of in Amsterdam, there is Fashiolista, and Sofa used to be there...

DeusExMachina 15y ago
Impossible to find housing is not my experience. I moved here one year ago from Italy. Got an apartment from my first company for 2 months, then rented a shared apartment with other two people. After a few months I got a mortgage with no money down and moved in my own house not far away from the center, and the government reimburses me part of that every month. If we speak about renting prices, I can agree they are high, but from what I heard they are still less expensive than in the valley. Places to rent also go really quickly, but impossible is another thing.
- tomh- 15y ago
  The rent is very high in Amsterdam, and it is really difficult to find good housing in Amsterdam in a decent neighborhood. The rent might be lower than the valley, but don't forget that Dutch salaries can easily be half of what you can get in the valley too.
  - NonEUCitizen 15y ago
    Rent is high. It's also difficult to find housing because most places use "Makelaars" (rental agents), and they tend to only want to show the apartments during office hours on weekdays.
    - ElDragonRojo 15y ago
      Appsterdam also has an amazing housing agent who specializes in expats. I have a ground level apartment with a courtyard on the canal at Groenburgwal, which is in my opinion the nicest neighborhood in Amsterdam, right smack in the middle of everything, but quiet, and beautiful. Furnished, all inclusive: €1300/mo. I lived in San Francisco. An apartment this nice in a neighborhood this nice was well out of my price range, and I made six figures at Apple.
      - tomh- 15y ago
        This is typically unaffordable for most developers (single). If you earn 50.000 euro per year, this would be 50% of your net-income. Most rental agencies have requirements on your income before you are eligible to rent an apartment. This could be 4 or 4.5 times your pretax income so you would require a 60-70k salary (or income) per year. That is 85k-100k USD. That is a high end salary, which only the most senior people would get.
        ElDragonRojo 15y ago
        This represents about the nicest apartment in Amsterdam. Things get cheaper the further you move from the center. And what "most rental agencies" require doesn't affect us. We have our own agency.
        tomh- 15y ago
        Mind to share that agency with the rest of us or give a ballpark price for an apartment a typical developer can afford (30-40k pre-tax salary)? I know lots of people who have been searching for places in Amsterdam to live for a decent price.
felixmar 15y ago
Good to know about that treaty. It could make it easier for Dutch startups to attract talented employees from the US. If they eventually want to start their own company they have the option to stay in the Netherlands.
nandemo 15y ago
On immigration: the article says that it's easier to immigrate to Amsterdam than Silicon Valley, but from what you say and what the embassy site says, it's not any easier (unless you're from EU of course). If you need a company sponsorship then your options are limited. People keep bashing US's immigration system, but the only country I know that it's easier on immigration for skilled workers is Canada. If you have the requirements then you can move without a company sponsorship, and then look for a job.

DeusExMachina 15y ago

Impossible to find housing is not my experience. I moved here one year ago from Italy. Got an apartment from my first company for 2 months, then rented a shared apartment with other two people. After a few months I got a mortgage with no money down and moved in my own house not far away from the center, and the government reimburses me part of that every month. If we speak about renting prices, I can agree they are high, but from what I heard they are still less expensive than in the valley. Places to rent also go really quickly, but impossible is another thing.

tomh- 15y ago
The rent is very high in Amsterdam, and it is really difficult to find good housing in Amsterdam in a decent neighborhood. The rent might be lower than the valley, but don't forget that Dutch salaries can easily be half of what you can get in the valley too.
- NonEUCitizen 15y ago
  Rent is high. It's also difficult to find housing because most places use "Makelaars" (rental agents), and they tend to only want to show the apartments during office hours on weekdays.
  - ElDragonRojo 15y ago
    Appsterdam also has an amazing housing agent who specializes in expats. I have a ground level apartment with a courtyard on the canal at Groenburgwal, which is in my opinion the nicest neighborhood in Amsterdam, right smack in the middle of everything, but quiet, and beautiful. Furnished, all inclusive: €1300/mo. I lived in San Francisco. An apartment this nice in a neighborhood this nice was well out of my price range, and I made six figures at Apple.
    - tomh- 15y ago
      This is typically unaffordable for most developers (single). If you earn 50.000 euro per year, this would be 50% of your net-income. Most rental agencies have requirements on your income before you are eligible to rent an apartment. This could be 4 or 4.5 times your pretax income so you would require a 60-70k salary (or income) per year. That is 85k-100k USD. That is a high end salary, which only the most senior people would get.
      - ElDragonRojo 15y ago
        This represents about the nicest apartment in Amsterdam. Things get cheaper the further you move from the center. And what "most rental agencies" require doesn't affect us. We have our own agency.
        tomh- 15y ago
        Mind to share that agency with the rest of us or give a ballpark price for an apartment a typical developer can afford (30-40k pre-tax salary)? I know lots of people who have been searching for places in Amsterdam to live for a decent price.

felixmar 15y ago

Good to know about that treaty. It could make it easier for Dutch startups to attract talented employees from the US. If they eventually want to start their own company they have the option to stay in the Netherlands.

nandemo 15y ago

On immigration: the article says that it's easier to immigrate to Amsterdam than Silicon Valley, but from what you say and what the embassy site says, it's not any easier (unless you're from EU of course). If you need a company sponsorship then your options are limited. People keep bashing US's immigration system, but the only country I know that it's easier on immigration for skilled workers is Canada. If you have the requirements then you can move without a company sponsorship, and then look for a job.