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This is so very frustrating, and why I wish the LWN article more strongly explained how wrong Greg was. > particularly after the disgusting response from the r

This is so very frustrating, and why I wish the LWN article more strongly explained how wrong Greg was. > particularly after the disgusting response from the researcher after being called out on their shit. The researcher was slandered publicly by Greg. Greg repeatedly accuses the maintainer of purposefully submitting malicious patches, which he NEVER did. Greg also does so in an extraordinarily insulting way, diminishing the student's skillset, somewhat ironically as the student's research did in fact find bugs in the kernel. The researcher very rightfully responded the way he did - by calling out the slanderous remarks and removing himself from the Linux Kernel, a project that will no longer benefit from his contributions (which, if you bothered to look into, are far better than Greg gave credit for). Greg is very much in the wrong here. He is the one who made repeated false accusations. Please do not continue the very unfortunate attacks against a student who was only trying to submit good-faith patches to the kernel.

HarryHirsch 5y ago
You omitted the fact that Aditya's advisor was Kangjie Lu, who ran the research project with the bogus patches. It would be natural to assume that anything from that general direction would be more of the same.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  I didn't "omit it", it's irrelevant. It obviously would not be natural since it was incorrect, and a natural response would not be to throw blind, incorrect allegations and ridiculous insults due to a suspicion. Greg overreacted. Linus agrees, other kernel maintainers agree. The only person who won't come out and admit it is Greg himself, and his overreaction has cost the kernel a valuable asset as well as the reputation of an innocent researcher, who now gets comments like "they're disgusting" from people who took Greg's accusations at face value.
  - silly-silly 5y ago
    So, there is a code of conduct.. https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu...
    - staticassertion 5y ago
      Yes, it's a sham, Greg is on the CoC committee.
- dcow 5y ago
  And this justifies slandering another unrelated human how? It might explain the more aggressive jump to an assumption of malice, you are correct, but it sure as hell doesn't justify arbitrary negative actions especially towards another honest human being resulting from such a leap. That's either Greg's fault or Kangjie's fault or some combination but certainly not Aditya's fault and they don't deserve to be treated as sub-human because of simple proximity. That type of reality is not natural and it's not human and it's not the one I live in. Be pissed at the stupid research paper all you want. It doesn't justify treating some tertiary human like utter shit. And for the record nobody is trying to "cancel" Greg or the kernel here. The project is great and Greg is probably a super chill dude on most occasions. But people aren't perfect and fuck up. You can act rashly under stress and later be wrong. That's understandable and that is human. The whole point is how you respond in light of new information. That's the test of character. We don't need to sit here and sweep Greg's BS under the rug because he's a kernel celebrity. I honestly think some form of apology would go a long way to rectifying the slander, and cool down the whole thing and most importantly, might be enough to make Aditya feel welcome again in the community. Greg was wrong, his behavior rash, and the example should not be emulated by others in our community. Period.
  - HarryHirsch 5y ago
    Aditya decided to join a supervisor with questionable ethics who ran a very ill-conceived research project. He could have chosen someone else for his thesis or spoken up when the paper went for submission, or at least stepped aside from kernel development but instead decided to dig in. It's all very poor judgement on his part, in multiple instances. There's no need to normalize that behaviour, because it's not normal, at least not in the world I'd like to live in. Recommended reading: All Hallows Eve by Charles Williams, a meditation on where stupidity and selfishness lead.
    - dcow 5y ago
      I don't necessarily disagree about how a student should handle an ethically grey situation. But that still doesn't justify treating other humans like shit. And for the record I don’t think there is even level headed consensus formed yet on the whole paper thing. It’s arguably unethical, but it is also arguably simply inconsiderate. And it has certainly provided some degree of utility, although it’s unclear how much. I think most of the impressions have been molded by Greg’s response during the “kernel peeps are pissed” phase of the whole affair.
- Blackthorn 5y ago
  Exactly! This is the "find out" part of "fuck around and find out". Kangjie Lu's research group is permanently tainted.
nominated1 5y ago
I don’t appreciate being told what I can and cannot say in this manner. As for attacking people, you’re doing a whole lot more than me, which unlike you, wasn’t my intent.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  > I don’t appreciate being told what I can and cannot say in this manner. I didn't tell you what to say, I'm pleading with you and everyone else to stop spreading misinformation that is costing an innocent man his reputation. > As for attacking people, you’re doing a whole lot more than me, which unlike you, wasn’t my intent. You called Aditya's response "disgusting".
- dcow 5y ago
  I don't see any attacking. Don't be hysterical. I see a plead to yield to facts and to treat other humans with respect because they're human and they deserve basic respect.

HarryHirsch 5y ago

You omitted the fact that Aditya's advisor was Kangjie Lu, who ran the research project with the bogus patches. It would be natural to assume that anything from that general direction would be more of the same.

staticassertion 5y ago
I didn't "omit it", it's irrelevant. It obviously would not be natural since it was incorrect, and a natural response would not be to throw blind, incorrect allegations and ridiculous insults due to a suspicion. Greg overreacted. Linus agrees, other kernel maintainers agree. The only person who won't come out and admit it is Greg himself, and his overreaction has cost the kernel a valuable asset as well as the reputation of an innocent researcher, who now gets comments like "they're disgusting" from people who took Greg's accusations at face value.
- silly-silly 5y ago
  So, there is a code of conduct.. https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu...
  - staticassertion 5y ago
    Yes, it's a sham, Greg is on the CoC committee.
dcow 5y ago
And this justifies slandering another unrelated human how? It might explain the more aggressive jump to an assumption of malice, you are correct, but it sure as hell doesn't justify arbitrary negative actions especially towards another honest human being resulting from such a leap. That's either Greg's fault or Kangjie's fault or some combination but certainly not Aditya's fault and they don't deserve to be treated as sub-human because of simple proximity. That type of reality is not natural and it's not human and it's not the one I live in. Be pissed at the stupid research paper all you want. It doesn't justify treating some tertiary human like utter shit. And for the record nobody is trying to "cancel" Greg or the kernel here. The project is great and Greg is probably a super chill dude on most occasions. But people aren't perfect and fuck up. You can act rashly under stress and later be wrong. That's understandable and that is human. The whole point is how you respond in light of new information. That's the test of character. We don't need to sit here and sweep Greg's BS under the rug because he's a kernel celebrity. I honestly think some form of apology would go a long way to rectifying the slander, and cool down the whole thing and most importantly, might be enough to make Aditya feel welcome again in the community. Greg was wrong, his behavior rash, and the example should not be emulated by others in our community. Period.
- HarryHirsch 5y ago
  Aditya decided to join a supervisor with questionable ethics who ran a very ill-conceived research project. He could have chosen someone else for his thesis or spoken up when the paper went for submission, or at least stepped aside from kernel development but instead decided to dig in. It's all very poor judgement on his part, in multiple instances. There's no need to normalize that behaviour, because it's not normal, at least not in the world I'd like to live in. Recommended reading: All Hallows Eve by Charles Williams, a meditation on where stupidity and selfishness lead.
  - dcow 5y ago
    I don't necessarily disagree about how a student should handle an ethically grey situation. But that still doesn't justify treating other humans like shit. And for the record I don’t think there is even level headed consensus formed yet on the whole paper thing. It’s arguably unethical, but it is also arguably simply inconsiderate. And it has certainly provided some degree of utility, although it’s unclear how much. I think most of the impressions have been molded by Greg’s response during the “kernel peeps are pissed” phase of the whole affair.
Blackthorn 5y ago
Exactly! This is the "find out" part of "fuck around and find out". Kangjie Lu's research group is permanently tainted.

nominated1 5y ago

I don’t appreciate being told what I can and cannot say in this manner. As for attacking people, you’re doing a whole lot more than me, which unlike you, wasn’t my intent.

staticassertion 5y ago
> I don’t appreciate being told what I can and cannot say in this manner. I didn't tell you what to say, I'm pleading with you and everyone else to stop spreading misinformation that is costing an innocent man his reputation. > As for attacking people, you’re doing a whole lot more than me, which unlike you, wasn’t my intent. You called Aditya's response "disgusting".
dcow 5y ago
I don't see any attacking. Don't be hysterical. I see a plead to yield to facts and to treat other humans with respect because they're human and they deserve basic respect.