6 ms·

I don't mind people calling something "vegan cheese" or "vegan milk" or "milk alternative" etc. But I do mind people calling it "cheese" or "milk" intentionally

I don't mind people calling something "vegan cheese" or "vegan milk" or "milk alternative" etc. But I do mind people calling it "cheese" or "milk" intentionally when it's a vegan alternative, revelling in the confusion, just to give the impression that they're interchangeable and it's really no big deal if you get the vegan version instead. Like, wtf is almond milk? When I was a kid, almond milk was super tasty, and it was basically normal milk mixed in with sweet almond sherbet. What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? If you asked me for almond milk and I gave you actual "almond milk" (i.e. the dairy kind) and it turned out you were vegan, you'd be pissed off, right?

Djvacto 6y ago
I'm curious, do you have a link or image of what that "almond milk" you used to have was? Obviously searching for the various possible terms gives results mostly from recent times, about the vegan almond milk.
- tpoacher 6y ago
  Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. Whereas if you say "almond milk" now even in greek, it'll probably refer to the vegan stuff, and you'll have to literally say "milk with the taste of almond" for the other one. Soumada is very tasty, a bit like amaretto but without the alcohol. I haven't had it in years ... A similar and very popular drink along similar lines is "rose milk", which is stirring up some rose sherbet in milk. It was a popular way of getting kids to drink milk back in my day (slightly less popular these days). But I admit, if a vegan "rose milk" comes out as some milky alternative made of rose petals and I have to repurpose "rose milk" as well, I'm going to be quite upset :p [1] https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditional-almond-drink/ https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditio...
  - cheese_goddess 6y ago
    > Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. "Αμυγδαλόγαλα"; I confess I've never heard that word but maybe it's just an old word?
    - tpoacher 6y ago
      In Greek you don't tend to say that, you'd say Γάλα Αμύγδαλο instead (similarly Γάλα Σοκολάτα for chocolate milk, and Γάλα Τριαντάφυλλο for rose milk).
      - cheese_goddess 6y ago
        Ah, I see. Γάλα σοκολάτα, I know. I hadn't heard of the others but they make sense in that way.
DangitBobby 6y ago
> What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? Because that would be crippling for an advertising perspective. It sounds like something out of a satirical sci-fi dystopian environment. The goal is to encourage people to choose it as an alternative to dairy milk, not to use the most precise label.
- AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
  Well, it is something from a dystopia. So... yeah.
- tpoacher 6y ago
  I get it. But it could have easily been a play on the word 'milk/milky', without calling it 'milk' per se. Like "Nilk" or "Plantmilk" or something. E.g. lactose-free dairy milk is marketed as 'delac'. It's not that hard.
  - cheese_goddess 6y ago
    Lactose-free dairy milk is milk with added lactase, an enzyme that is used by mammals to digest lactose in milk. Now, children, remember from dairy science class: lactose is a complex sugar made of two siple sugars, glucose and galactose. Lactase breaks lactose down to its constituent simple sugars so that they can more easily be absorbed by picky mammalian guts. Fun fact: lactose-free milk still has all the sugars that made up its original lactose content (you could even argue it still has all its lactose, if you wanted to be really obstinate). Glucose in particular registers as sweeter than lactose and for this reason many "lactose-free" milks have messages on the packaging informing consumers that they have "no sweetener added". Lactose-free milks also tend to be Ultra Heat Treated, which enhances the sweet taste by means of the Maillard reaction. See wikipedia.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  Food is very highly regulated. And for good reason. It seems totally feasible to require a new product to have a new name, even if it's kind of like an existing product. Think: ice cream. Ice cream is a regulated product with a formal legal definition. Places making cheaper ice cream substitutes were forced to come up with names to distinguish their products: soft serve, Frosty, FroYo, etc. It takes the consumer all of 10 seconds to get the gist. Everyone should be okay with truth in food. Especially vegan, who certainly would NOT be okay with products that mislead them into believing a product is vegan when it is not.
bin_bash 6y ago
It’s because “almond juice” sounds disgusting
- wheybags 6y ago
  I'm a big fan of cow juice myself.
danShumway 6y ago
> and I gave you actual "almond milk" What makes that the actual version? Almond milk as an animal milk substitute made from almonds dates back to the 1300s[0]. It's not new. I hear where you're coming from, but I also question what does and doesn't count as an "authentic" name, and I suspect a lot of it comes down to people thinking that the names they used growing up or the names they ran into first are the "real" ones and everything else is a new fad. When people are arguing about confusion I'm a little bit sympathetic (although I'm doubtful consumer confusion is actually the serious problem they make it out to be). But when people start to argue about needing to use proper words, I usually check out, because usually they have a very narrow view of what word origins count as proper. They're rarely tracing the etymology of the word, they're usually just saying that everyone should adopt the same definitions that their specific parents used. So let me flip your question around on you: almond sherbet already traditionally contains milk. What would be wrong with calling almond sherbet... almond sherbet, or an almond milkshake if the balance of milk is increased. That would be helpful anyway, because you could make vegan almond sherbet using a vegan milk as a base, and then what are you going to call it under your system? My take on this is that vegan cheese/milk is substitutable in nearly every single recipe I make. Many people dislike the taste of vegan cheese, which I understand and think is completely valid, but many people also dislike the taste of brie and I don't see a general campaign to classify brie as a non-cheese. So part of why I call those products vegan milk/cheese instead of "cheeze" is because I think if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and if I can use it in all of my duck recipes often without any additional thought or research, then for all practical purposes it's a duck. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond_milk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond_milk
- cheese_goddess 6y ago
  > What makes that the actual version? That it's milk with almond. Like "chocolate milk" is milk with chocolate and "milk coffee" is coffee with milk.
  - wumpus 6y ago
    So if I'm Catholic, it's OK for me to drink almond-flavored dairy-milk during Lent? Win! From medieval and Renaissance-era recipes, religious rules appears to be the main reason almond milk is used. Because it's not dairy.
interestica 6y ago
I guess we should always be specifying "Cow's" milk.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Huh? Almond milk goes back 500 years and has always, always been made of only almonds. It would be very strange to rename it after 200 generations and several civilizations have come and gone.
- milesvp 6y ago
  Bah! I think you may be right. A quick google corroborates it was referenced in english as early as the 14th century. I’ve been annoyed at the term milk for non lactose based liquids for a while now. I’d assumed it was modern marketing usurping the term. Now I have to find some other thing to be mildly annoyed at.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    I was the same way. Its hard on this old dog sometimes.
- tpoacher 6y ago
  Yes you're right that was a bad example. My bad choice of specific example shouldn't dismiss the more general point though.
  - wumpus 6y ago
    If you want to pick another bad example, consider "rice milk" in Asia. Not a dairy product.
    - tpoacher 6y ago
      Indeed. So introducing a dairy beverage called rice milk would cause unnecessary confusion. Yes?
      - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        I don't know. We already have sheeps' milk, cows' milk, mothers' milk, milkweed...perhaps folks are ready for some variation in their language.
ragingrobot 6y ago
> What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? Costco does this. They don't call it almond milk but "Almond beverage". I think they do similar with other vegan products.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Djvacto 6y ago

I'm curious, do you have a link or image of what that "almond milk" you used to have was? Obviously searching for the various possible terms gives results mostly from recent times, about the vegan almond milk.

tpoacher 6y ago
Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. Whereas if you say "almond milk" now even in greek, it'll probably refer to the vegan stuff, and you'll have to literally say "milk with the taste of almond" for the other one. Soumada is very tasty, a bit like amaretto but without the alcohol. I haven't had it in years ... A similar and very popular drink along similar lines is "rose milk", which is stirring up some rose sherbet in milk. It was a popular way of getting kids to drink milk back in my day (slightly less popular these days). But I admit, if a vegan "rose milk" comes out as some milky alternative made of rose petals and I have to repurpose "rose milk" as well, I'm going to be quite upset :p [1] https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditional-almond-drink/ https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditio...
- cheese_goddess 6y ago
  > Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. "Αμυγδαλόγαλα"; I confess I've never heard that word but maybe it's just an old word?
  - tpoacher 6y ago
    In Greek you don't tend to say that, you'd say Γάλα Αμύγδαλο instead (similarly Γάλα Σοκολάτα for chocolate milk, and Γάλα Τριαντάφυλλο for rose milk).
    - cheese_goddess 6y ago
      Ah, I see. Γάλα σοκολάτα, I know. I hadn't heard of the others but they make sense in that way.

DangitBobby 6y ago

> What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? Because that would be crippling for an advertising perspective. It sounds like something out of a satirical sci-fi dystopian environment. The goal is to encourage people to choose it as an alternative to dairy milk, not to use the most precise label.

AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
Well, it is something from a dystopia. So... yeah.
tpoacher 6y ago
I get it. But it could have easily been a play on the word 'milk/milky', without calling it 'milk' per se. Like "Nilk" or "Plantmilk" or something. E.g. lactose-free dairy milk is marketed as 'delac'. It's not that hard.
- cheese_goddess 6y ago
  Lactose-free dairy milk is milk with added lactase, an enzyme that is used by mammals to digest lactose in milk. Now, children, remember from dairy science class: lactose is a complex sugar made of two siple sugars, glucose and galactose. Lactase breaks lactose down to its constituent simple sugars so that they can more easily be absorbed by picky mammalian guts. Fun fact: lactose-free milk still has all the sugars that made up its original lactose content (you could even argue it still has all its lactose, if you wanted to be really obstinate). Glucose in particular registers as sweeter than lactose and for this reason many "lactose-free" milks have messages on the packaging informing consumers that they have "no sweetener added". Lactose-free milks also tend to be Ultra Heat Treated, which enhances the sweet taste by means of the Maillard reaction. See wikipedia.
mywittyname 6y ago
Food is very highly regulated. And for good reason. It seems totally feasible to require a new product to have a new name, even if it's kind of like an existing product. Think: ice cream. Ice cream is a regulated product with a formal legal definition. Places making cheaper ice cream substitutes were forced to come up with names to distinguish their products: soft serve, Frosty, FroYo, etc. It takes the consumer all of 10 seconds to get the gist. Everyone should be okay with truth in food. Especially vegan, who certainly would NOT be okay with products that mislead them into believing a product is vegan when it is not.

bin_bash 6y ago

It’s because “almond juice” sounds disgusting

wheybags 6y ago
I'm a big fan of cow juice myself.

danShumway 6y ago

> and I gave you actual "almond milk" What makes that the actual version? Almond milk as an animal milk substitute made from almonds dates back to the 1300s[0]. It's not new. I hear where you're coming from, but I also question what does and doesn't count as an "authentic" name, and I suspect a lot of it comes down to people thinking that the names they used growing up or the names they ran into first are the "real" ones and everything else is a new fad. When people are arguing about confusion I'm a little bit sympathetic (although I'm doubtful consumer confusion is actually the serious problem they make it out to be). But when people start to argue about needing to use proper words, I usually check out, because usually they have a very narrow view of what word origins count as proper. They're rarely tracing the etymology of the word, they're usually just saying that everyone should adopt the same definitions that their specific parents used. So let me flip your question around on you: almond sherbet already traditionally contains milk. What would be wrong with calling almond sherbet... almond sherbet, or an almond milkshake if the balance of milk is increased. That would be helpful anyway, because you could make vegan almond sherbet using a vegan milk as a base, and then what are you going to call it under your system? My take on this is that vegan cheese/milk is substitutable in nearly every single recipe I make. Many people dislike the taste of vegan cheese, which I understand and think is completely valid, but many people also dislike the taste of brie and I don't see a general campaign to classify brie as a non-cheese. So part of why I call those products vegan milk/cheese instead of "cheeze" is because I think if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and if I can use it in all of my duck recipes often without any additional thought or research, then for all practical purposes it's a duck. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond_milk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond_milk

cheese_goddess 6y ago
> What makes that the actual version? That it's milk with almond. Like "chocolate milk" is milk with chocolate and "milk coffee" is coffee with milk.
- wumpus 6y ago
  So if I'm Catholic, it's OK for me to drink almond-flavored dairy-milk during Lent? Win! From medieval and Renaissance-era recipes, religious rules appears to be the main reason almond milk is used. Because it's not dairy.

interestica 6y ago

I guess we should always be specifying "Cow's" milk.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

Huh? Almond milk goes back 500 years and has always, always been made of only almonds. It would be very strange to rename it after 200 generations and several civilizations have come and gone.

milesvp 6y ago
Bah! I think you may be right. A quick google corroborates it was referenced in english as early as the 14th century. I’ve been annoyed at the term milk for non lactose based liquids for a while now. I’d assumed it was modern marketing usurping the term. Now I have to find some other thing to be mildly annoyed at.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  I was the same way. Its hard on this old dog sometimes.
tpoacher 6y ago
Yes you're right that was a bad example. My bad choice of specific example shouldn't dismiss the more general point though.
- wumpus 6y ago
  If you want to pick another bad example, consider "rice milk" in Asia. Not a dairy product.
  - tpoacher 6y ago
    Indeed. So introducing a dairy beverage called rice milk would cause unnecessary confusion. Yes?
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      I don't know. We already have sheeps' milk, cows' milk, mothers' milk, milkweed...perhaps folks are ready for some variation in their language.

ragingrobot 6y ago

> What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? Costco does this. They don't call it almond milk but "Almond beverage". I think they do similar with other vegan products.

deleted 6y ago

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