6 ms·

Sure. The bottom line is that nobody is interested in any serious stuff being done remotely. So those type of stories you usually hear from someone like these f

Sure. The bottom line is that nobody is interested in any serious stuff being done remotely. So those type of stories you usually hear from someone like these folks who did "online communications" and "freelance web design/programming", which is not serious by definition. Projects involving something like C++ have significantly higher chances of having a bigger scope, impact and different set of responsibilities from all participants. This lifestyle might be appealing for some very short period of life, under very specific circumstances. You have to be young to not worry about health insurance. You have to have the job that is simple enough to be outsourced and complicated enough to be at least reasonably paid. You have to not worry about "career" or "experience" (which are just different words for "future"). You have to be from the first-class country to take advantage of the visa requirements with your passport. It is also interesting to note that things they can afford in certain countries, like going to the beach every day, would definitely be prohibited for them in their home country given their occupation (note their remark on costs in Argentina, which, I assume, are lower than in Belgium). I can elaborate much further as few of my friends live this sort of lifestyle in South-East Asia. From what I know about it, it's definitely (a) not for me, (b) doesn't make me think that the future knowledge workers will work that way. I work on my own projects in one of the most expensive cities on the planet and it's hard for me to see how can I relocate anywhere without losing the advantages I'm getting from the infrastructure and population here. UPDATE: Though seeing the world is awesome, I'd personally prefer saving 10-20K and taking a year off work for that.

tomsaffell 15y ago
Your use of the word serious to describe work sounds like a value judgement. Your description sounds more like a distinction between inter-connected vs. carved-out / standalone. That said, If I were to take off 12 months, I too would prefer to save 10/20K and take off a whole year. I traveled for 6 months after college on ~$5000. Pro tip: if you're paying taxes before and after your trip, then spread it over two tax years (i.e. June - July in US). I calculated that doing this in the UK (where there is a big jump in tax rates) could net you several thousand pounds.
jessedhillon 15y ago
Thank you 1000x for stating this. I've never heard of anyone doing anything significant and living this way. Before he made money selling books on how to design lifestyles, what did Chris Guillebeau do for money? Be a grad student, I think. (As in, live off his stipend.)
- soulbow 15y ago
  He's not the only one to lead this lifestyle and write about it. Tim Ferris started a sports supplement company to fund his travels before writing "The 4-Hour Work Week." One doesn't have to be a programmer or designer to lead a lifestyle like this, though those professions are more location independent by their nature.
  - jessedhillon 15y ago
    > One doesn't have to be a programmer or designer to lead a lifestyle like this That's not my point. My point is that, regardless of what you do work on, it will be rather inconsequential (by the norms of SV perhaps).
- ahoyhere 15y ago
  I've done it and I "do significant things." Instead of being grateful for somebody confirming your suspicions, you'll find it pays to investigate the truth.
  - jessedhillon 15y ago
    A) What do you do that is significant (by SV norms, not your personal, subjective standard for self-satisfaction)? B) A string of corroborating anecdotes is not proof (notwithstanding a cliche about anecdotes * N == data for large N) Let me be more clear about significance. My statement is that people don't do what is done in SV by trotting around the world, working from their laptops in internet cafes. What is done in SV? * Start or work at billion dollar startups. * Create disruptive technologies and build businesses around them. * Network with the most brilliant minds in business, engineering, etc. Creating an app that can pay the bill for a bungalow in Phuket (for example) is a great achievement and congratulations on being able to do it. You deserve all the awesome titles that you've listed in your profile. However, it's not what I would call significant, by these standards. I'm sorry if you feel offended by my choice of the word significant, I really am, but I am saying that there is a difference in scale between what a globetrotter can do and "the rest of us" -- and there is a limitation on the former.
ironchef 15y ago
"The bottom line is that nobody is interested in any serious stuff being done remotely" I disagree. I've done "serious" engineering (performance engineering, etc.) remotely. The key is establishing a level of trust with the client PRIOR to working remote (or having the references which back you up)....and to be able to perform remotely (which takes a lot of discipline).
fmavituna 15y ago
Ironically, we are trying to find people who can work remotely (.NET) and funny enough, no one is interested in doing serious stuff remotely :)
- Johngibb 15y ago
  I'm actually looking to do remote .NET work, and have almost 4 years of experience. Can you shoot me an email and I can send you my resume? My email is my HN username @ gmail.com
  - fmavituna 15y ago
    Great, I just did.
    - artmageddon 15y ago
      I'm not sure how many .Net developers you're looking for(especially remote), but this is something I'd be interested in hearing more about also if you don't mind emailing me at Arthur.Baczyk@gmail.com...
- iramiller 15y ago
  It may be because you appear to be targeting a smaller niche than just "doing serious stuff remotely"... Finding someone with extensive .NET experience, both web and desktop development history and a deep understanding of web security is enough of a challenge in itself. When you add in the GMT+0 work requirement your working pool of remote workers is even smaller still. Regardless I imagine that for any work with a distributed team the problem of finding highly specialized talent with the willingness to work remote is universal.
  - fmavituna 15y ago
    All we need is experienced .NET developers (desktop) rest of them just good to have but totally optional. Actually right now even GMT+0 is optional as we now more time zones in the team -5 to +2 and I'll update the jobs page accordingly.
Joeri 15y ago
It helps that they are from Belgium. Healthcare isn't an issue, because I'm sure they arranged for repatriation insurance ahead of time for anything serious, and once back in belgium getting medical treatment is cheap. Career and experience weren't affected, because a gap year doesn't matter much to employers. Passports similarly aren't an issue. I've been to south-africa, thailand and the US, and I never needed a visum. I used to be big on the idea of leaving belgium and going to "nice" places to live there. Over here the weather always seemed to be cold and rainy, the people inhospitable and narrow-minded, and the cities dull and lifeless. Travelling sort of brought me back home. The weather is cold and rainy at times, but it's also totally unpredictable, and appreciating that has made me realize it's not as rainy as I thought it was. The people may not be as warm and welcoming as they are in thailand, but they also respect your privacy and they are more honest with their emotions. As far as the cities go, I've really come to love Antwerp, where I live now. When I go on vacation to thailand now (went once a year for the past few years), it's amazing, and I get to do things that are impossible in belgium (I got married with nothing but green fields between us and mountains on all sides), but after a few weeks I always get homesick. In a way, I think this sort of on-the-move lifestyle is meant for people that haven't found a home yet. Once you do find a genuine home, not just a place where your bed is, and come to appreciate it, you simply don't need to do this. I still like to travel, but only to satisfy curiosity, not because I think other places are nicer.
- lancewiggs 15y ago
  It's so sad to see the comments about healthcare costs. I've travelled the world on motorcycle - and been happily uninsured for all of it except for the USA. Costs of treatment overseas are a fraction of the US - and of any health insurance.
- nomadznu 15y ago
  Hi Joeri. From Belgium too I presume. It indeed helped we're from Belgium, regarding the insurances. On the other hand: for US citizens this way of living is even cheaper if they are paying health insurance in their home country. Because that's so darn expensive over there. That's why so many people go to Thailand: health care is inexpensive and very very good when compared to the costs related to it in their own country. We had to go once: the total costs medicines included: 37 euro. I never took the bill to my health insurance to be reimbursed... So the insurance thing is nice, but you have to compare it to the real costs. As far as what you're saying on Belgium: we totally agree: We came back to Belgium in Feb, when it was rainy and people where still complaining... And suddenly it was Spring and well, heaven. I myself have been living for 2.5 years abroad before this one year trip. Coming back to Belgium, Ghent, is always superb. We love it. And we found our home quite a while ago. It's Ghent. One of the most beautiful cities in the world. But we love travelling too. And that's why we decided to do this trip: we didn't want to wait until we're retired to do what we love to do. In our ideal lifestyle we'd do this each year for 3 to 4 months. Just like grandparents who skip winter in Spain, but our destinations would be a tiny bit different :)
wladimir 15y ago
that nobody is interested in any serious stuff being done remotely From experience, I can say that this is simply not true. Obviously you have to get the right channels to find interesting assignments, and be able to build trust (have a good portfolio/CV) but a blanket statement like yours doesn't make sense. BTW, even if it pays somewhat less than having a full-time corporate "career", some people just like a more adventurous life than just sitting in an office all day. Now, and not at some non-descript time in the future when "retiring". It might not be for you but don't pass value judgements.
ahoyhere 15y ago
I've done work for several Fortune 50 companies while traveling around the world -- design work that got written up in business and trade magazines. You're just flat-out wrong about "serious stuff." Also, a couple of my friends - Romanians - have spent more than the past year traveling around South America, so you are mistaken about having to "be from the first-class country to take advantage of the visa requirements with your passport," as well. Finally, health insurance from many countries covers emergencies overseas -- and for Americans, there are several specific options for travelers. Sure, you say it's not for you and I believe you. It's not for me either, I've learned from experience. But a lot of the other things you say aren't factual.
- smikhanov 15y ago
  Don't want to make it too personal, but Romania is as much of a first-class country as Austria (EU member for 4 years now), so that only confirms what I'm saying.
kristiandupont 15y ago
Well, my situation counters many of the statements you made there (granted, it's hard to objectively say whether or not I am "worrying about my future"). I am sure that it's not for you as you say but it sounds like you are rationalizing it.
nomadznu 15y ago
If that's the message you got from this, I guess you read it differently than what we meant. We're not saying this lifestyle is 'walhallah'. It comes with risks, costs, and you have to be 'strong' to do it. Hence the remarks we made in the presentation. But that's what we were willing to 'pay'. What we meant to say by the presentation is that living the life as it is preached in modern (capitalist) society can be questioned. For us, travelling is far more important than building that big career and earning a lot of money. Instead of living the life expected and waiting until we're 67 to do this while retired, we decided to do it now. For someone else their dream might be totally different, and the solution to that too. That's exactly what lifestyledesign is all about: designing your life as you want it. Check out the Ted video of Stefan Sagmeister on mini-retirements. It might give you a different perspective :) So I totally respect you view on travelling: I can imagine that many people think 'I don't want to work on a vacation'. But the main thing was: when you like travelling, and you want to do this now, it can be done. *Saying webdesign or online communication is not 'serious stuff' is in a way hurting a bit. Ouch :) I mean: I've built my experience over the last 11 years. Saying it is not that valuable is, well, cannot really give a good reaction to it.
- smikhanov 15y ago
  Thanks for taking my (excessively harsh sometimes) comment with a smile. I apologize if the load of value judgement there hurts. Usual response I have for my friends who work and travel in South-East Asia is in the vein of "make sure you don't postpone to start your career until when you 67 -- it might be too late already". No more no less. Someone's willingness to work now and travel later, just like doing the opposite, deserves equal respect. That's the story :)
jbrains 15y ago
I'd say that any project where someone decides to spend hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars is pretty serious.

tomsaffell 15y ago

Your use of the word serious to describe work sounds like a value judgement. Your description sounds more like a distinction between inter-connected vs. carved-out / standalone. That said, If I were to take off 12 months, I too would prefer to save 10/20K and take off a whole year. I traveled for 6 months after college on ~$5000. Pro tip: if you're paying taxes before and after your trip, then spread it over two tax years (i.e. June - July in US). I calculated that doing this in the UK (where there is a big jump in tax rates) could net you several thousand pounds.

jessedhillon 15y ago

Thank you 1000x for stating this. I've never heard of anyone doing anything significant and living this way. Before he made money selling books on how to design lifestyles, what did Chris Guillebeau do for money? Be a grad student, I think. (As in, live off his stipend.)

soulbow 15y ago
He's not the only one to lead this lifestyle and write about it. Tim Ferris started a sports supplement company to fund his travels before writing "The 4-Hour Work Week." One doesn't have to be a programmer or designer to lead a lifestyle like this, though those professions are more location independent by their nature.
- jessedhillon 15y ago
  > One doesn't have to be a programmer or designer to lead a lifestyle like this That's not my point. My point is that, regardless of what you do work on, it will be rather inconsequential (by the norms of SV perhaps).
ahoyhere 15y ago
I've done it and I "do significant things." Instead of being grateful for somebody confirming your suspicions, you'll find it pays to investigate the truth.
- jessedhillon 15y ago
  A) What do you do that is significant (by SV norms, not your personal, subjective standard for self-satisfaction)? B) A string of corroborating anecdotes is not proof (notwithstanding a cliche about anecdotes * N == data for large N) Let me be more clear about significance. My statement is that people don't do what is done in SV by trotting around the world, working from their laptops in internet cafes. What is done in SV? * Start or work at billion dollar startups. * Create disruptive technologies and build businesses around them. * Network with the most brilliant minds in business, engineering, etc. Creating an app that can pay the bill for a bungalow in Phuket (for example) is a great achievement and congratulations on being able to do it. You deserve all the awesome titles that you've listed in your profile. However, it's not what I would call significant, by these standards. I'm sorry if you feel offended by my choice of the word significant, I really am, but I am saying that there is a difference in scale between what a globetrotter can do and "the rest of us" -- and there is a limitation on the former.

ironchef 15y ago

"The bottom line is that nobody is interested in any serious stuff being done remotely" I disagree. I've done "serious" engineering (performance engineering, etc.) remotely. The key is establishing a level of trust with the client PRIOR to working remote (or having the references which back you up)....and to be able to perform remotely (which takes a lot of discipline).

fmavituna 15y ago

Ironically, we are trying to find people who can work remotely (.NET) and funny enough, no one is interested in doing serious stuff remotely :)

Johngibb 15y ago
I'm actually looking to do remote .NET work, and have almost 4 years of experience. Can you shoot me an email and I can send you my resume? My email is my HN username @ gmail.com
- fmavituna 15y ago
  Great, I just did.
  - artmageddon 15y ago
    I'm not sure how many .Net developers you're looking for(especially remote), but this is something I'd be interested in hearing more about also if you don't mind emailing me at Arthur.Baczyk@gmail.com...
iramiller 15y ago
It may be because you appear to be targeting a smaller niche than just "doing serious stuff remotely"... Finding someone with extensive .NET experience, both web and desktop development history and a deep understanding of web security is enough of a challenge in itself. When you add in the GMT+0 work requirement your working pool of remote workers is even smaller still. Regardless I imagine that for any work with a distributed team the problem of finding highly specialized talent with the willingness to work remote is universal.
- fmavituna 15y ago
  All we need is experienced .NET developers (desktop) rest of them just good to have but totally optional. Actually right now even GMT+0 is optional as we now more time zones in the team -5 to +2 and I'll update the jobs page accordingly.

Joeri 15y ago

It helps that they are from Belgium. Healthcare isn't an issue, because I'm sure they arranged for repatriation insurance ahead of time for anything serious, and once back in belgium getting medical treatment is cheap. Career and experience weren't affected, because a gap year doesn't matter much to employers. Passports similarly aren't an issue. I've been to south-africa, thailand and the US, and I never needed a visum. I used to be big on the idea of leaving belgium and going to "nice" places to live there. Over here the weather always seemed to be cold and rainy, the people inhospitable and narrow-minded, and the cities dull and lifeless. Travelling sort of brought me back home. The weather is cold and rainy at times, but it's also totally unpredictable, and appreciating that has made me realize it's not as rainy as I thought it was. The people may not be as warm and welcoming as they are in thailand, but they also respect your privacy and they are more honest with their emotions. As far as the cities go, I've really come to love Antwerp, where I live now. When I go on vacation to thailand now (went once a year for the past few years), it's amazing, and I get to do things that are impossible in belgium (I got married with nothing but green fields between us and mountains on all sides), but after a few weeks I always get homesick. In a way, I think this sort of on-the-move lifestyle is meant for people that haven't found a home yet. Once you do find a genuine home, not just a place where your bed is, and come to appreciate it, you simply don't need to do this. I still like to travel, but only to satisfy curiosity, not because I think other places are nicer.

lancewiggs 15y ago
It's so sad to see the comments about healthcare costs. I've travelled the world on motorcycle - and been happily uninsured for all of it except for the USA. Costs of treatment overseas are a fraction of the US - and of any health insurance.
nomadznu 15y ago
Hi Joeri. From Belgium too I presume. It indeed helped we're from Belgium, regarding the insurances. On the other hand: for US citizens this way of living is even cheaper if they are paying health insurance in their home country. Because that's so darn expensive over there. That's why so many people go to Thailand: health care is inexpensive and very very good when compared to the costs related to it in their own country. We had to go once: the total costs medicines included: 37 euro. I never took the bill to my health insurance to be reimbursed... So the insurance thing is nice, but you have to compare it to the real costs. As far as what you're saying on Belgium: we totally agree: We came back to Belgium in Feb, when it was rainy and people where still complaining... And suddenly it was Spring and well, heaven. I myself have been living for 2.5 years abroad before this one year trip. Coming back to Belgium, Ghent, is always superb. We love it. And we found our home quite a while ago. It's Ghent. One of the most beautiful cities in the world. But we love travelling too. And that's why we decided to do this trip: we didn't want to wait until we're retired to do what we love to do. In our ideal lifestyle we'd do this each year for 3 to 4 months. Just like grandparents who skip winter in Spain, but our destinations would be a tiny bit different :)

wladimir 15y ago

that nobody is interested in any serious stuff being done remotely From experience, I can say that this is simply not true. Obviously you have to get the right channels to find interesting assignments, and be able to build trust (have a good portfolio/CV) but a blanket statement like yours doesn't make sense. BTW, even if it pays somewhat less than having a full-time corporate "career", some people just like a more adventurous life than just sitting in an office all day. Now, and not at some non-descript time in the future when "retiring". It might not be for you but don't pass value judgements.

ahoyhere 15y ago

I've done work for several Fortune 50 companies while traveling around the world -- design work that got written up in business and trade magazines. You're just flat-out wrong about "serious stuff." Also, a couple of my friends - Romanians - have spent more than the past year traveling around South America, so you are mistaken about having to "be from the first-class country to take advantage of the visa requirements with your passport," as well. Finally, health insurance from many countries covers emergencies overseas -- and for Americans, there are several specific options for travelers. Sure, you say it's not for you and I believe you. It's not for me either, I've learned from experience. But a lot of the other things you say aren't factual.

smikhanov 15y ago
Don't want to make it too personal, but Romania is as much of a first-class country as Austria (EU member for 4 years now), so that only confirms what I'm saying.

kristiandupont 15y ago

Well, my situation counters many of the statements you made there (granted, it's hard to objectively say whether or not I am "worrying about my future"). I am sure that it's not for you as you say but it sounds like you are rationalizing it.

nomadznu 15y ago

If that's the message you got from this, I guess you read it differently than what we meant. We're not saying this lifestyle is 'walhallah'. It comes with risks, costs, and you have to be 'strong' to do it. Hence the remarks we made in the presentation. But that's what we were willing to 'pay'. What we meant to say by the presentation is that living the life as it is preached in modern (capitalist) society can be questioned. For us, travelling is far more important than building that big career and earning a lot of money. Instead of living the life expected and waiting until we're 67 to do this while retired, we decided to do it now. For someone else their dream might be totally different, and the solution to that too. That's exactly what lifestyledesign is all about: designing your life as you want it. Check out the Ted video of Stefan Sagmeister on mini-retirements. It might give you a different perspective :) So I totally respect you view on travelling: I can imagine that many people think 'I don't want to work on a vacation'. But the main thing was: when you like travelling, and you want to do this now, it can be done. *Saying webdesign or online communication is not 'serious stuff' is in a way hurting a bit. Ouch :) I mean: I've built my experience over the last 11 years. Saying it is not that valuable is, well, cannot really give a good reaction to it.

smikhanov 15y ago
Thanks for taking my (excessively harsh sometimes) comment with a smile. I apologize if the load of value judgement there hurts. Usual response I have for my friends who work and travel in South-East Asia is in the vein of "make sure you don't postpone to start your career until when you 67 -- it might be too late already". No more no less. Someone's willingness to work now and travel later, just like doing the opposite, deserves equal respect. That's the story :)

jbrains 15y ago

I'd say that any project where someone decides to spend hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars is pretty serious.