14 ms·

> stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses Why do we even begin with naming vegan food products after the items they are meant

> stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses Why do we even begin with naming vegan food products after the items they are meant to represent? "Cheese" is made from milk. "Vegan cheese" as a label is specifically targeted at being "like milk cheese" and thus intends to replicate it. If you want > Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself? we should entirely dispense with imitating, and create an entirely new food category whose principle is "vegan" and not "like real food minus animal". Invent new stuff. Ferment things from plants but do not reuse any labels that are derived from animals. If you do not do this, people will still bring this up, because their expectations are intentionally shaped by how something is called. Don't call vegan cheese as "cheese" if you want it to shape its own path as a new sort of food product. edit: same with "cakes" which require butter and eggs in their traditional forms. Make something new but perhaps do not call it a cake? Make a new word that sounds catchy (we do all the time, and incorporate these into our language, e.g., Kleenex, google, "cloud" for servers, ...).

fooblat 5y ago
Where I live in the EU, a product cannot legally be labeled as cheese if it does not meet the official definition of cheese, which includes being made from milk. We also have lots of vegan "cheese" type products with funny names like "Keese" and "Cheez" and some are pretty good. I like keeping the names clear because no one gets confused and buys the wrong thing.
- rusk 5y ago
  Em nope? There was a case brought by the farmers to try and outlaw this labelling but the case is still ongoing, if not thrown out already ... Maybe it’s the case in Your Country but it’s far from being a pan European thing.
  - fooblat 5y ago
    Em yes! "The European Parliament has voted in favour of an amendment (no.171) which would place further restrictions on the use of dairy food labels for plant-based products. The use of dairy terms, such as "cheese", "yoghurt" and "milk", for non-dairy products is already banned within the EU, following a decision by the CJEU in 2017, however, under the new amendment, these restrictions would go one step further by also prohibiting terms that liken plant-based products to dairy, eg "yoghurt-style", "butter alternative" or "cheese substitute"."[0] 0. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=588638a6-879c-446e-bd94-8eb8e7077ff1 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=588638a6-879c...
    - rusk 5y ago
      Apologies that’s a new one on me I guess it hasn’t made it to my neck of the woods yet! I don’t think the similar effort around meats has gone so well ... EDIT still ongoing and not yet legislated you can still buy “vegan cheese” for now https://m.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/amendment-171-34-politicians-protest-plant-based-dairy-censorship-in-european-parliament.html https://m.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/amendment-171-34-pol... It’s interesting that your jurisdiction is so proactive in this area!
      - freeflight 5y ago
        > Amendment 171: 34 politicians protest plant-based dairy censorship in European Parliament Between that title, and it having been posted on April the 1st, I find it difficult to take that article serious.
        rusk 5y ago
        Well you can go look up literally any other recent article on the topic.
- stonesweep 5y ago
  In the US it's the same, the FDA has regulations and all the (not real cheese) items have either a funny name ("cheeze") or have something like "imitation cheese product" or "cheese food product" (I've seen a number of different labels over my life) to indicate it's not real (milk) cheese. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=133 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFR...
etrautmann 5y ago
it's a good point, and one I broadly agree with. These products do exist, however, like seitan and tempeh. If you making something sufficiently delicious, however, it should be easier to sell than those (IMO).
delecti 5y ago
I broadly agree, certainly so with all the vegan cheese approximations I've tried, but I don't think it applies to cakes. The cake recipe I grew up eating (in a non-vegetarian, lower middle class, US household) was "accidentally vegan". It absolutely passes the test of "if you didn't know you wouldn't know". Incidentally I think impossible burgers pass that test too, and beyond burgers only barely don't.
qudat 5y ago
The main exception I would grant to this is when you have ingredients in a recipe that you need to figure out vegan substitutions for. In this case you do want something marketed as the vegan version of it. Eggs, in particular, need a valid vegan substitute. As an aside, if we could veganize all the different incantations of an egg it would be ground-breaking. Alas, I fear we are doomed to have 5 different vegan products to replace those incantations of an egg. 1 for scrambled eggs, 1 for baking, 1 for emulsifying, 1 for adhesion, etc.
tpoacher 5y ago
I don't mind people calling something "vegan cheese" or "vegan milk" or "milk alternative" etc. But I do mind people calling it "cheese" or "milk" intentionally when it's a vegan alternative, revelling in the confusion, just to give the impression that they're interchangeable and it's really no big deal if you get the vegan version instead. Like, wtf is almond milk? When I was a kid, almond milk was super tasty, and it was basically normal milk mixed in with sweet almond sherbet. What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? If you asked me for almond milk and I gave you actual "almond milk" (i.e. the dairy kind) and it turned out you were vegan, you'd be pissed off, right?
- Djvacto 5y ago
  I'm curious, do you have a link or image of what that "almond milk" you used to have was? Obviously searching for the various possible terms gives results mostly from recent times, about the vegan almond milk.
  - tpoacher 5y ago
    Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. Whereas if you say "almond milk" now even in greek, it'll probably refer to the vegan stuff, and you'll have to literally say "milk with the taste of almond" for the other one. Soumada is very tasty, a bit like amaretto but without the alcohol. I haven't had it in years ... A similar and very popular drink along similar lines is "rose milk", which is stirring up some rose sherbet in milk. It was a popular way of getting kids to drink milk back in my day (slightly less popular these days). But I admit, if a vegan "rose milk" comes out as some milky alternative made of rose petals and I have to repurpose "rose milk" as well, I'm going to be quite upset :p [1] https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditional-almond-drink/ https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditio...
    - cheese_goddess 5y ago
      > Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. "Αμυγδαλόγαλα"; I confess I've never heard that word but maybe it's just an old word?
PKop 5y ago
>Why do we Because this is as much a political statement, and battle, as it is a personal dietary choice. As crazy as it sounds, a certain segment of people love to change the definition of words. It is not enough to not want to eat animal products themselves, they also are not content to allow others to have these things to themselves unmolested by grotesque artificial imitations. They want their non-thing to become the thing, replace it, and to the degree it disgusts and frustrates the normal crowd and impinges on their enjoyment of the normal version, the happier they are.
- jodrellblank 5y ago
  Much simpler to assume that selling to omnivores opens a much larger market than selling only to vegans. Omnivores want to eat cheese, and are not looking for "fermented cashew cubes", but might try "cashew cheese" if it was with the cheese and (cheaper/healthier/prettier/recommended by a friend).
  - strken 5y ago
    I wish vegan cheese would be more specific as to what it's imitating. "Cashew cheese" is less helpful than "cashew paneer (great in curries!)" or "melty cashew mozzarella" or something that describes what facet of real cheese they've managed to get right.
Clewza313 5y ago
Fun factoid: in Chinese, there are different terms for soy juice (豆浆 doujiang), freshly made from soy and meant to taste like it, and Western-style soy milk (豆奶 dounai), which adds in all sorts of weird additives, particularly oil, and ends up tasting like neither. The latter did not exist in China until the concept was imported from the West, and remains far more niche (coffee shops, packaged drinks) than the original.
AussieWog93 5y ago
We don't need to invent new anything. So many great vegan dishes have existed for centuries and survived against meat on their own merits. Proper falafel with tabouleh and tahini is amazing. Chana or brinjal masala are a treat. Pasta with a simple 4 ingredient Napoli is the ultimate comfort food. Don't even get me started on dosa. Hell, fucking bread dipped in olive oil is good. Yet, for God knows what reason, whenever some vegan is trying to convince me of the merits of their diet, they hand me some godawful dry sausage made of hydrolysed soy protein and say "see, it's just like a real sausage. Did you know she's Paul McCartney's daughter?". Or some fermented cashew nuts smeared on a piece of bread that they think is anything remotely like cheese. I have never understood this and have since reached the conclusion that most vegans are closer to paleo, gluten-free (not coeliac) and other alternative diet folk in that they just don't "get" people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food.
- spfzero 5y ago
  Why would you think Paleo food choices aren't appreciated by people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food? Paleo/Primal foods are the most satisfying, tastey and healthy foods. The feelings around food are evolutionarily rooted. We are always going to be most satisfied by the foods that are best for us, it's by design. There is an epidemiological experiment that has been going on for over a million years. It resulted in a population of 8 billion homo sapiens. That is not actually good for the Earth, but if you want to know what to eat, to maximize your health as an individual, look that way.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    >Why would you think Paleo food choices aren't appreciated by people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food? Mainly it's the language that is used by people who adhere to diets such as this. There is more reference to the health properties of various ingredients than there is the art of cooking, and this feels alien to people like myself. Of course, there are paleo foodies (just as there are vegans), but they are in the minority. I'm not saying the way you see things is wrong (if anything, the fact that you're almost certainly healthier than me is strong evidence to the contrary), but for evangelists of alternative diets there is a cultural barrier to overcome that vegans especially seem to just not be aware of.

fooblat 5y ago

Where I live in the EU, a product cannot legally be labeled as cheese if it does not meet the official definition of cheese, which includes being made from milk. We also have lots of vegan "cheese" type products with funny names like "Keese" and "Cheez" and some are pretty good. I like keeping the names clear because no one gets confused and buys the wrong thing.

rusk 5y ago
Em nope? There was a case brought by the farmers to try and outlaw this labelling but the case is still ongoing, if not thrown out already ... Maybe it’s the case in Your Country but it’s far from being a pan European thing.
- fooblat 5y ago
  Em yes! "The European Parliament has voted in favour of an amendment (no.171) which would place further restrictions on the use of dairy food labels for plant-based products. The use of dairy terms, such as "cheese", "yoghurt" and "milk", for non-dairy products is already banned within the EU, following a decision by the CJEU in 2017, however, under the new amendment, these restrictions would go one step further by also prohibiting terms that liken plant-based products to dairy, eg "yoghurt-style", "butter alternative" or "cheese substitute"."[0] 0. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=588638a6-879c-446e-bd94-8eb8e7077ff1 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=588638a6-879c...
  - rusk 5y ago
    Apologies that’s a new one on me I guess it hasn’t made it to my neck of the woods yet! I don’t think the similar effort around meats has gone so well ... EDIT still ongoing and not yet legislated you can still buy “vegan cheese” for now https://m.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/amendment-171-34-politicians-protest-plant-based-dairy-censorship-in-european-parliament.html https://m.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/amendment-171-34-pol... It’s interesting that your jurisdiction is so proactive in this area!
    - freeflight 5y ago
      > Amendment 171: 34 politicians protest plant-based dairy censorship in European Parliament Between that title, and it having been posted on April the 1st, I find it difficult to take that article serious.
      - rusk 5y ago
        Well you can go look up literally any other recent article on the topic.
stonesweep 5y ago
In the US it's the same, the FDA has regulations and all the (not real cheese) items have either a funny name ("cheeze") or have something like "imitation cheese product" or "cheese food product" (I've seen a number of different labels over my life) to indicate it's not real (milk) cheese. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=133 https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFR...

etrautmann 5y ago

it's a good point, and one I broadly agree with. These products do exist, however, like seitan and tempeh. If you making something sufficiently delicious, however, it should be easier to sell than those (IMO).

delecti 5y ago

I broadly agree, certainly so with all the vegan cheese approximations I've tried, but I don't think it applies to cakes. The cake recipe I grew up eating (in a non-vegetarian, lower middle class, US household) was "accidentally vegan". It absolutely passes the test of "if you didn't know you wouldn't know". Incidentally I think impossible burgers pass that test too, and beyond burgers only barely don't.

qudat 5y ago

The main exception I would grant to this is when you have ingredients in a recipe that you need to figure out vegan substitutions for. In this case you do want something marketed as the vegan version of it. Eggs, in particular, need a valid vegan substitute. As an aside, if we could veganize all the different incantations of an egg it would be ground-breaking. Alas, I fear we are doomed to have 5 different vegan products to replace those incantations of an egg. 1 for scrambled eggs, 1 for baking, 1 for emulsifying, 1 for adhesion, etc.

tpoacher 5y ago

I don't mind people calling something "vegan cheese" or "vegan milk" or "milk alternative" etc. But I do mind people calling it "cheese" or "milk" intentionally when it's a vegan alternative, revelling in the confusion, just to give the impression that they're interchangeable and it's really no big deal if you get the vegan version instead. Like, wtf is almond milk? When I was a kid, almond milk was super tasty, and it was basically normal milk mixed in with sweet almond sherbet. What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? If you asked me for almond milk and I gave you actual "almond milk" (i.e. the dairy kind) and it turned out you were vegan, you'd be pissed off, right?

Djvacto 5y ago
I'm curious, do you have a link or image of what that "almond milk" you used to have was? Obviously searching for the various possible terms gives results mostly from recent times, about the vegan almond milk.
- tpoacher 5y ago
  Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. Whereas if you say "almond milk" now even in greek, it'll probably refer to the vegan stuff, and you'll have to literally say "milk with the taste of almond" for the other one. Soumada is very tasty, a bit like amaretto but without the alcohol. I haven't had it in years ... A similar and very popular drink along similar lines is "rose milk", which is stirring up some rose sherbet in milk. It was a popular way of getting kids to drink milk back in my day (slightly less popular these days). But I admit, if a vegan "rose milk" comes out as some milky alternative made of rose petals and I have to repurpose "rose milk" as well, I'm going to be quite upset :p [1] https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditional-almond-drink/ https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditio...
  - cheese_goddess 5y ago
    > Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. "Αμυγδαλόγαλα"; I confess I've never heard that word but maybe it's just an old word?

PKop 5y ago

>Why do we Because this is as much a political statement, and battle, as it is a personal dietary choice. As crazy as it sounds, a certain segment of people love to change the definition of words. It is not enough to not want to eat animal products themselves, they also are not content to allow others to have these things to themselves unmolested by grotesque artificial imitations. They want their non-thing to become the thing, replace it, and to the degree it disgusts and frustrates the normal crowd and impinges on their enjoyment of the normal version, the happier they are.

jodrellblank 5y ago
Much simpler to assume that selling to omnivores opens a much larger market than selling only to vegans. Omnivores want to eat cheese, and are not looking for "fermented cashew cubes", but might try "cashew cheese" if it was with the cheese and (cheaper/healthier/prettier/recommended by a friend).
- strken 5y ago
  I wish vegan cheese would be more specific as to what it's imitating. "Cashew cheese" is less helpful than "cashew paneer (great in curries!)" or "melty cashew mozzarella" or something that describes what facet of real cheese they've managed to get right.

Clewza313 5y ago

Fun factoid: in Chinese, there are different terms for soy juice (豆浆 doujiang), freshly made from soy and meant to taste like it, and Western-style soy milk (豆奶 dounai), which adds in all sorts of weird additives, particularly oil, and ends up tasting like neither. The latter did not exist in China until the concept was imported from the West, and remains far more niche (coffee shops, packaged drinks) than the original.

AussieWog93 5y ago

We don't need to invent new anything. So many great vegan dishes have existed for centuries and survived against meat on their own merits. Proper falafel with tabouleh and tahini is amazing. Chana or brinjal masala are a treat. Pasta with a simple 4 ingredient Napoli is the ultimate comfort food. Don't even get me started on dosa. Hell, fucking bread dipped in olive oil is good. Yet, for God knows what reason, whenever some vegan is trying to convince me of the merits of their diet, they hand me some godawful dry sausage made of hydrolysed soy protein and say "see, it's just like a real sausage. Did you know she's Paul McCartney's daughter?". Or some fermented cashew nuts smeared on a piece of bread that they think is anything remotely like cheese. I have never understood this and have since reached the conclusion that most vegans are closer to paleo, gluten-free (not coeliac) and other alternative diet folk in that they just don't "get" people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food.

spfzero 5y ago
Why would you think Paleo food choices aren't appreciated by people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food? Paleo/Primal foods are the most satisfying, tastey and healthy foods. The feelings around food are evolutionarily rooted. We are always going to be most satisfied by the foods that are best for us, it's by design. There is an epidemiological experiment that has been going on for over a million years. It resulted in a population of 8 billion homo sapiens. That is not actually good for the Earth, but if you want to know what to eat, to maximize your health as an individual, look that way.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  >Why would you think Paleo food choices aren't appreciated by people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food? Mainly it's the language that is used by people who adhere to diets such as this. There is more reference to the health properties of various ingredients than there is the art of cooking, and this feels alien to people like myself. Of course, there are paleo foodies (just as there are vegans), but they are in the minority. I'm not saying the way you see things is wrong (if anything, the fact that you're almost certainly healthier than me is strong evidence to the contrary), but for evangelists of alternative diets there is a cultural barrier to overcome that vegans especially seem to just not be aware of.