6 ms·

What, specifically, are those disadvantages? And are they actually related to employee classification, or are merely privileges not usually granted to employees

What, specifically, are those disadvantages? And are they actually related to employee classification, or are merely privileges not usually granted to employees?

giantg2 6y ago
For my wife, she can get more hours and higher pay as an independent contractor. Part of this is because we get insurance through my job. They also give her more autonomy than an employee would have.
- itake 6y ago
  Off-topic, but do you think its a problem that gig workers have no upward mobility? A worker with 10 years of experience will be paid exactly the same as a worker with 1 month.
  - jandrewrogers 6y ago
    That depends on the type of gig. There are some gigs where experience and skill command a substantial premium.
    - itake 6y ago
      The largest gig employers (Uber, Lyft, Doordash, etc.) do not seem to provide a substantial premium for experience. In 5-10 years, what will be the current driver's expectations for pay?
      - giantg2 6y ago
        Beyond a month or two of experience, what would more experience benefit in that role?
  - adamiscool8 6y ago
    Plenty of employees have no upward mobility either. Though with 10 years of positive ratings, I would think The Algorithm would reward them with more frequent/better gigs?
    - giantg2 6y ago
      I'm an employee. I have 9 years experience and a masters. I had one promotion. I've been stuck at the intermediate developer level and do not see any promotions in my future
    - itake 6y ago
      The Algorithm could decide their car is older and they could get less gigs :-/.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    She has upward mobility. They let her choose the rate she charges the customer and then they take their cut. The more hours she wants, she can have. If she's good at her job and the customers love her, she can give herself a raise by increasing prices (it's already like $50-120/hr depending on the class). She even has the authority to hire someone to work under her.
- lupire 6y ago
  Why wouldn't her employer let her opt out of insurance? Are you comparing full-time hourly employees to part-time contracting? > They also give her When you say it like that, you are describing an employee not an independent contractor. But your layer comment, about setting her own rates, makes me think that she is working as an actual freelancer, not as a gig employee.
  - losvedir 6y ago
    > Why wouldn't her employer let her opt out of insurance? Is this... a thing? I've never had that option in any of my jobs. Sure, I can choose not to take the employee sponsored health insurance, but then I'm just opting out of my share of the monthly premiums the company would deduct. But in general, a company pays more than that. I've never been able to opt out of company insurance and recover their share of the premiums! I assumed that wasn't legal for them to offer. Oh, and to be explicit about the connection: that's why an independent contractor would be paid more. If an employee's wage is $x, a company generally pays something like $(2x), and so an independent contractor would expect to be paid something closer to 2x than x. (Usually because they* then have to pay certain taxes, and worry about their own benefits, etc.)
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Most employers aren't going to pay you more for opting out of insurance. Many employers would try to keep your hours low so they don't have to offer you insurance. "When you say it like that, you are describing an employee not an independent contractor." This doesn't make sense to me. She has more autonomy than an employee would. They give her that level of autonomy by not making her an employee. She does not get a W2. "But your layer comment, about setting her own rates, makes me think that she is working as an actual freelancer, not as a gig employee." There's a lot of overlap between those terms, except replace employee with worker. I would say she's a freelance gig worker. Freelance tends to mean that you are just independent. You can work on an individual project for a company and move on, but it's usually larger pieces of work. As a gig worker, I see it as being more of a repetitive task for various customers. You can be a freelance driver and work for both uber and Lyft, or even uber and a taxi company. The gig part is that they are always individual tasks you get paid for - each ride. This is very similar to what she is doing. So I see gig workers as freelancers, but not all freelancers are gig workers.
itake 6y ago
If I drove for Uber/Lyft for moonlight income, I would prefer to paid purely in cash instead of being forced to be paid in health insurance, pto, etc. since all of that would be provided by my primary employer.
- kec 6y ago
  Employers are only forced to extend healthcare etc benefits to employees, there's no law stating the employee has to accept them.
  - itake 6y ago
    Will employers pay a higher wage if the employee chooses not to accept them? In my experience, most benefits are use-it-or-lose it.
    - hansvm 6y ago
      My last employer did. You could only opt in/out once a year or during major life events, but it gave enough flexibility that I could have higher pay or more benefits when it suited me.
    - ruined 6y ago
      generally among low-wage jobs, if you accept employer-provided healthcare you must pay for the plan from your wages. so kinda
  - salawat 6y ago
    No law? Technically correct. Practical barriers in terms of the maximum limit of complexity legal and HR are willing/able to take on and remain effective while dealing with? Absolutely. Everyone thinks "It shouldn't be that hard!" In reality, it kinda is. HR abstracts away the complexities of jurisdiction specific hiring requirements from the rest of the org, and legal does much the same. If you ask for extraordinary accomodation, I'm not saying it won't work, but I can guarantee you will experience friction while HR/Legal figures it out. On the plus side, if it works, new employment template. If it doesn't, you don't get offered the job. I've ended up the awkward giraffe in a couple places. You being flexible, and the HR/Management recognizing your unique capability to create value helps. However, when talking Gig work, they will invariably go for the template approach. There's also the fact that Gig work really conflates the distinction between "contractor" and "employee" in the sense that contractor carries with it an assumption you are providing for your own affairs. The compensation you quote them should have parity with their total outlay for an employee to do the job, because you should be arranging the same things for yourself; thereby obviating your need for the employer to do it. The thing you get out of by the contract route is all that paperwork and process overhead. You do a one-time disbursement of funds, and donezo. The problem is, no one ever tells you (the contractor) that, and Uber et al does not let you quote price or have input on the cost calculation. So you accept super under-bid compensation, because you don't know the difference between a market rate and a hole in the wall, or an appreciation for the total footprint of the business model. Uber, and services like it, make their money by predating. on this ignorance. This is not to say that stuff like "licensing" gig workers to vouch for the fact they really know what they are doing is really a good idea... I'm kind of curious though what kind of effect that sort of thing would have on the worker pool. Like a short course that make sure they understand the accounting. Wonder if an experiment could be run with that sort of thing somewhere and how it would effect the market. That being said, it kinda kills the value prop of people just needing a few bucks here and there, but I question the seductive simplicity underneath that pitch, because everytime I've run into something that's pitched that way there's a big ole ugly iceberg beneath it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
viro 6y ago
When and for how long I work is a pretty big one. Most employees don't get to just decide their hours on a whim.
- kube-system 6y ago
  When an employer dictates that a worker must work certain hours, it is evidence that they are an employee. But, the opposite is not true -- employers are not obligated to dictate the hours of their employees. The fact that most employers do dictate hours is a function of those job expectations, not their legal employment classification. It is pretty common for mid or senior level white-collar salaried jobs to have a decent amount of freedom in working hours within what is functionally reasonable for their role.
  - viro 6y ago
    > It is pretty common for mid or senior level white-collar salaried jobs to have a decent amount of freedom in working hours within what is functionally reasonable for their role. That is so disconnected from reality for the majority of American workers that you might have broken me. But lets start with salaried workers have a job .. Their employers don't care what time you work as long as you get that job done. How exactly would that work for Uber? quotas? avg 2-3 rides and hour or ur fired?
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Of course -- the majority of Americans are not employed in mid or senior level white-collar salaried jobs. Uber drivers are definitely not in this classification. I am saying, classification as an employee does not require Uber to change anything about their expectations of their workers' work frequency, duration, or schedule. It can remain voluntary just as it is now. There are currently voluntary hourly jobs that exist, but people here are probably less familiar with that concept as compared to salaried jobs.
      - hagy 6y ago
dheera 6y ago
If you are a contractor, you are paid for every hour you work. If you work overtime, you are paid for it. If you work holidays, you are paid for it. If you are a salaried employee the sad state of the system is a lot of companies tend to take advantage of you and overwork you and don't pay you overtime. The flip side of it is contractors don't usually get paid vacation, so it's both an advantage and a disadvantage.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  Hourly employees, which get paid by the hour and for overtime, exist. This is the most common employee classification. Hourly full-time employees exist. You can have full-time benefits and be paid by the amount of hours worked -- and this is the second-most-common method of working.

What, specifically, are those disadvantages? And are they actually related to employee classification, or are merely privileges not usually granted to employees?

giantg2 6y ago

For my wife, she can get more hours and higher pay as an independent contractor. Part of this is because we get insurance through my job. They also give her more autonomy than an employee would have.

itake 6y ago
Off-topic, but do you think its a problem that gig workers have no upward mobility? A worker with 10 years of experience will be paid exactly the same as a worker with 1 month.
- jandrewrogers 6y ago
  That depends on the type of gig. There are some gigs where experience and skill command a substantial premium.
  - itake 6y ago
    The largest gig employers (Uber, Lyft, Doordash, etc.) do not seem to provide a substantial premium for experience. In 5-10 years, what will be the current driver's expectations for pay?
    - giantg2 6y ago
      Beyond a month or two of experience, what would more experience benefit in that role?
- adamiscool8 6y ago
  Plenty of employees have no upward mobility either. Though with 10 years of positive ratings, I would think The Algorithm would reward them with more frequent/better gigs?
  - giantg2 6y ago
    I'm an employee. I have 9 years experience and a masters. I had one promotion. I've been stuck at the intermediate developer level and do not see any promotions in my future
  - itake 6y ago
    The Algorithm could decide their car is older and they could get less gigs :-/.
- giantg2 6y ago
  She has upward mobility. They let her choose the rate she charges the customer and then they take their cut. The more hours she wants, she can have. If she's good at her job and the customers love her, she can give herself a raise by increasing prices (it's already like $50-120/hr depending on the class). She even has the authority to hire someone to work under her.
lupire 6y ago
Why wouldn't her employer let her opt out of insurance? Are you comparing full-time hourly employees to part-time contracting? > They also give her When you say it like that, you are describing an employee not an independent contractor. But your layer comment, about setting her own rates, makes me think that she is working as an actual freelancer, not as a gig employee.
- losvedir 6y ago
  > Why wouldn't her employer let her opt out of insurance? Is this... a thing? I've never had that option in any of my jobs. Sure, I can choose not to take the employee sponsored health insurance, but then I'm just opting out of my share of the monthly premiums the company would deduct. But in general, a company pays more than that. I've never been able to opt out of company insurance and recover their share of the premiums! I assumed that wasn't legal for them to offer. Oh, and to be explicit about the connection: that's why an independent contractor would be paid more. If an employee's wage is $x, a company generally pays something like $(2x), and so an independent contractor would expect to be paid something closer to 2x than x. (Usually because they* then have to pay certain taxes, and worry about their own benefits, etc.)
- giantg2 6y ago
  Most employers aren't going to pay you more for opting out of insurance. Many employers would try to keep your hours low so they don't have to offer you insurance. "When you say it like that, you are describing an employee not an independent contractor." This doesn't make sense to me. She has more autonomy than an employee would. They give her that level of autonomy by not making her an employee. She does not get a W2. "But your layer comment, about setting her own rates, makes me think that she is working as an actual freelancer, not as a gig employee." There's a lot of overlap between those terms, except replace employee with worker. I would say she's a freelance gig worker. Freelance tends to mean that you are just independent. You can work on an individual project for a company and move on, but it's usually larger pieces of work. As a gig worker, I see it as being more of a repetitive task for various customers. You can be a freelance driver and work for both uber and Lyft, or even uber and a taxi company. The gig part is that they are always individual tasks you get paid for - each ride. This is very similar to what she is doing. So I see gig workers as freelancers, but not all freelancers are gig workers.

itake 6y ago

If I drove for Uber/Lyft for moonlight income, I would prefer to paid purely in cash instead of being forced to be paid in health insurance, pto, etc. since all of that would be provided by my primary employer.

kec 6y ago
Employers are only forced to extend healthcare etc benefits to employees, there's no law stating the employee has to accept them.
- itake 6y ago
  Will employers pay a higher wage if the employee chooses not to accept them? In my experience, most benefits are use-it-or-lose it.
  - hansvm 6y ago
    My last employer did. You could only opt in/out once a year or during major life events, but it gave enough flexibility that I could have higher pay or more benefits when it suited me.
  - ruined 6y ago
    generally among low-wage jobs, if you accept employer-provided healthcare you must pay for the plan from your wages. so kinda
- salawat 6y ago
  No law? Technically correct. Practical barriers in terms of the maximum limit of complexity legal and HR are willing/able to take on and remain effective while dealing with? Absolutely. Everyone thinks "It shouldn't be that hard!" In reality, it kinda is. HR abstracts away the complexities of jurisdiction specific hiring requirements from the rest of the org, and legal does much the same. If you ask for extraordinary accomodation, I'm not saying it won't work, but I can guarantee you will experience friction while HR/Legal figures it out. On the plus side, if it works, new employment template. If it doesn't, you don't get offered the job. I've ended up the awkward giraffe in a couple places. You being flexible, and the HR/Management recognizing your unique capability to create value helps. However, when talking Gig work, they will invariably go for the template approach. There's also the fact that Gig work really conflates the distinction between "contractor" and "employee" in the sense that contractor carries with it an assumption you are providing for your own affairs. The compensation you quote them should have parity with their total outlay for an employee to do the job, because you should be arranging the same things for yourself; thereby obviating your need for the employer to do it. The thing you get out of by the contract route is all that paperwork and process overhead. You do a one-time disbursement of funds, and donezo. The problem is, no one ever tells you (the contractor) that, and Uber et al does not let you quote price or have input on the cost calculation. So you accept super under-bid compensation, because you don't know the difference between a market rate and a hole in the wall, or an appreciation for the total footprint of the business model. Uber, and services like it, make their money by predating. on this ignorance. This is not to say that stuff like "licensing" gig workers to vouch for the fact they really know what they are doing is really a good idea... I'm kind of curious though what kind of effect that sort of thing would have on the worker pool. Like a short course that make sure they understand the accounting. Wonder if an experiment could be run with that sort of thing somewhere and how it would effect the market. That being said, it kinda kills the value prop of people just needing a few bucks here and there, but I question the seductive simplicity underneath that pitch, because everytime I've run into something that's pitched that way there's a big ole ugly iceberg beneath it.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

viro 6y ago

When and for how long I work is a pretty big one. Most employees don't get to just decide their hours on a whim.

kube-system 6y ago
When an employer dictates that a worker must work certain hours, it is evidence that they are an employee. But, the opposite is not true -- employers are not obligated to dictate the hours of their employees. The fact that most employers do dictate hours is a function of those job expectations, not their legal employment classification. It is pretty common for mid or senior level white-collar salaried jobs to have a decent amount of freedom in working hours within what is functionally reasonable for their role.
- viro 6y ago
  > It is pretty common for mid or senior level white-collar salaried jobs to have a decent amount of freedom in working hours within what is functionally reasonable for their role. That is so disconnected from reality for the majority of American workers that you might have broken me. But lets start with salaried workers have a job .. Their employers don't care what time you work as long as you get that job done. How exactly would that work for Uber? quotas? avg 2-3 rides and hour or ur fired?
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Of course -- the majority of Americans are not employed in mid or senior level white-collar salaried jobs. Uber drivers are definitely not in this classification. I am saying, classification as an employee does not require Uber to change anything about their expectations of their workers' work frequency, duration, or schedule. It can remain voluntary just as it is now. There are currently voluntary hourly jobs that exist, but people here are probably less familiar with that concept as compared to salaried jobs.
    - hagy 6y ago

dheera 6y ago

If you are a contractor, you are paid for every hour you work. If you work overtime, you are paid for it. If you work holidays, you are paid for it. If you are a salaried employee the sad state of the system is a lot of companies tend to take advantage of you and overwork you and don't pay you overtime. The flip side of it is contractors don't usually get paid vacation, so it's both an advantage and a disadvantage.

freeone3000 6y ago
Hourly employees, which get paid by the hour and for overtime, exist. This is the most common employee classification. Hourly full-time employees exist. You can have full-time benefits and be paid by the amount of hours worked -- and this is the second-most-common method of working.