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> There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle ... I'm not sure what you

> There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle ... I'm not sure what you base this statement on. There are many people whose initial motivations for going vegan were ethical, either to avoid funding animal abuse, environmental degradation, or both. That was why I went vegan 23.5 years ago, and why I'm still vegan. I eat mock meat and non-dairy cheese because these taste like foods I liked before I went vegan. I didn't stop eating meat and cheese because I thought it tasted bad! I loved it, but I hate what went into its production. Now I can have the foods I like without the negative externalities. That's perfect! That said, my palette has expanded hugely since I first went vegetarian, and I also enjoy all sorts of things I used to really dislike, including more whole foods type dishes, and even raw food.

CarelessExpert 5y ago
That's why I said "often embraced", not "always embraced". :) I certainly am not so arrogant as to believe I understand why each and every person eating a vegan diet has made that choice. However, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to claim that a non-trivial number of people make the switch for health reasons, and that these plant-based substitutes are marketed based on claimed health benefits.
- autarch 5y ago
  Sure, plenty have done it for health reasons, but your comment implied that it was the majority reason. Maybe it is, but I don't know of any good statistics on this. As to whether the plant-based substitutes are healthier, they probably are when compared to the thing they're replacing in nearly all cases. But if you want to optimize your health I'd expect a plant-based diet based on less processed foods would be much better.
anigbrowl 5y ago
I totally get ethical vegetarianism, and appreciate that much animal abuse can occur within the dairy industry, but I don't think that's inherent. Of course, believing that and shopping ethically requires a great deal more selectivity and research (and willingness to pay more for food whose provenance can be trusted). Not to pick a fight, but I don't get the basic argument that 'all animal husbandry = unnatural exploitation' given the symbiosis between species like ants and aphids etc. which I can just go and observe in my yard at this time of year.
- TomatoDash 5y ago
  Abuse is only one among several other arguments presented for ethical vegetarianism. For example see https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/bts/vol19/iss1/1/ https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/bts/vol19/iss1/1/
  - anigbrowl 5y ago
    But I'm not questioning ethical vegetarianism, I'm talking about veganism's opposition to any kind of dairy farming over and above that.
    - TomatoDash 5y ago
      Oh I see. The linked paper uses vegetarianism in a wider sense that covers that too.
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  Using an example of something that exists in nature like aphids/ants to justify human behavior is a fundamentally flawed argument because quite simply: ants aren't humans, we're quite a bit more sophisticated and have far more reach/impact which comes with greater responsibility and consequences. Putting that aside for the moment because it is a rabbit hole, there is a continuum of what people think constitutes animal abuse. One the worst side of the spectrum (IMHO), are CAFOs: Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations. These are the first things you read about when you research animal cruelty. They're the videos of hundreds of thousands of cows standing kneed deep in their shit their whole lives and pumped full of antibiotics. And yet, some people look at this and go, "Yeah, I'm cool with that." On the other side of the spectrum, we have vegans who do not use any products derived from animals. In between we see efforts to mitigate the cruelty, such as: free range vs. constricted cages where movement is impossible; feeding them diets of foods they would find in nature (instead of feeding cows ground up chickens); not forcing them to grow so much meat they cannot move (chicken breasts; growth hormones in cows); not forcing them to produce so much milk their udders tear and become infected so they are injected with antibiotics, etc. For example, there is a cattle farm 10 miles from my house that has about 20 head of cattle, and you can purchase one as part of a co-op a year in advance. You can go visit the cow. You can see how it is raised and its conditions. This makes me feel a lot better than buying plastic-wrapped package from a Save-Rite supermarket. But that's me: some people might laugh at me for being "fancy pants liberal simp" other's think I'm still keeping animals from doing what they would do in nature if we weren't harvesting them. My point is: this is not an easy answer, and in my opinion how we treat animals that we capture and cage matters. Why? Since reason is a social construct, I can go deeper if you push, but it is my choice to not make animals suffer more than they have to.
Mediterraneo10 5y ago
There is a wing of the ethical-vegan community who disapprove of meat substitutes, arguing that we will never truly do justice to our animal brothers and sisters until we have lost the very appetite for their flesh. So, it is not just those who eat vegan out of health concerns, who are concerned about meat substitutes.
- subungual 5y ago
  Whoa, I'm an ethical vegan and pretty steeped in theory, and I've never encountered this wing before. I doubt I'll agree with them, but I'd be curious to read if you have anything you can link or cite.

CarelessExpert 5y ago

That's why I said "often embraced", not "always embraced". :) I certainly am not so arrogant as to believe I understand why each and every person eating a vegan diet has made that choice. However, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to claim that a non-trivial number of people make the switch for health reasons, and that these plant-based substitutes are marketed based on claimed health benefits.

autarch 5y ago
Sure, plenty have done it for health reasons, but your comment implied that it was the majority reason. Maybe it is, but I don't know of any good statistics on this. As to whether the plant-based substitutes are healthier, they probably are when compared to the thing they're replacing in nearly all cases. But if you want to optimize your health I'd expect a plant-based diet based on less processed foods would be much better.

anigbrowl 5y ago

I totally get ethical vegetarianism, and appreciate that much animal abuse can occur within the dairy industry, but I don't think that's inherent. Of course, believing that and shopping ethically requires a great deal more selectivity and research (and willingness to pay more for food whose provenance can be trusted). Not to pick a fight, but I don't get the basic argument that 'all animal husbandry = unnatural exploitation' given the symbiosis between species like ants and aphids etc. which I can just go and observe in my yard at this time of year.

TomatoDash 5y ago
Abuse is only one among several other arguments presented for ethical vegetarianism. For example see https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/bts/vol19/iss1/1/ https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/bts/vol19/iss1/1/
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  But I'm not questioning ethical vegetarianism, I'm talking about veganism's opposition to any kind of dairy farming over and above that.
  - TomatoDash 5y ago
    Oh I see. The linked paper uses vegetarianism in a wider sense that covers that too.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
Using an example of something that exists in nature like aphids/ants to justify human behavior is a fundamentally flawed argument because quite simply: ants aren't humans, we're quite a bit more sophisticated and have far more reach/impact which comes with greater responsibility and consequences. Putting that aside for the moment because it is a rabbit hole, there is a continuum of what people think constitutes animal abuse. One the worst side of the spectrum (IMHO), are CAFOs: Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations. These are the first things you read about when you research animal cruelty. They're the videos of hundreds of thousands of cows standing kneed deep in their shit their whole lives and pumped full of antibiotics. And yet, some people look at this and go, "Yeah, I'm cool with that." On the other side of the spectrum, we have vegans who do not use any products derived from animals. In between we see efforts to mitigate the cruelty, such as: free range vs. constricted cages where movement is impossible; feeding them diets of foods they would find in nature (instead of feeding cows ground up chickens); not forcing them to grow so much meat they cannot move (chicken breasts; growth hormones in cows); not forcing them to produce so much milk their udders tear and become infected so they are injected with antibiotics, etc. For example, there is a cattle farm 10 miles from my house that has about 20 head of cattle, and you can purchase one as part of a co-op a year in advance. You can go visit the cow. You can see how it is raised and its conditions. This makes me feel a lot better than buying plastic-wrapped package from a Save-Rite supermarket. But that's me: some people might laugh at me for being "fancy pants liberal simp" other's think I'm still keeping animals from doing what they would do in nature if we weren't harvesting them. My point is: this is not an easy answer, and in my opinion how we treat animals that we capture and cage matters. Why? Since reason is a social construct, I can go deeper if you push, but it is my choice to not make animals suffer more than they have to.

Mediterraneo10 5y ago

There is a wing of the ethical-vegan community who disapprove of meat substitutes, arguing that we will never truly do justice to our animal brothers and sisters until we have lost the very appetite for their flesh. So, it is not just those who eat vegan out of health concerns, who are concerned about meat substitutes.

subungual 5y ago
Whoa, I'm an ethical vegan and pretty steeped in theory, and I've never encountered this wing before. I doubt I'll agree with them, but I'd be curious to read if you have anything you can link or cite.