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There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle, resulting in the development

There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle, resulting in the development of more and more advanced food processing technologies designed to synthesize the experience of foods being excluded from the diet. Basically, in the quest to return to a more healthy, natural diet, some folks end up moving to foods that are more and more processed. That's not meant to be a criticism! In my mind it's just a bit of a surprising outcome and makes me wonder how folks who consume these products square that circle in their minds.

cavisne 5y ago
The justification is that they are temporary/bridging foods while transitioning to a whole foods diet. There is not much evidence of this working among vegan influencers (who fill their videos with meat and dairy mimicking meals) but that could be distorted by most product placements being such foods.
- CarelessExpert 5y ago
  I wonder about that claim. I've never seen the Impossible Burger, for example, pitched as a bridging mechanism. It seems to be purely about food substitution with no expectation that someone would phase that substitute out as they adapt to a plant-based diet. I feel like the pitch is "hey look, you can be vegan/vegetarian and not miss the meat-based foods you love so much!" i.e., you can have your vegetarian cake and eat it, too. But that then gets back to, why switch at all? If it's about ethics, these products make sense. If it's about health, it makes a lot less sense to me.
hvna 5y ago
This is something I've noticed as well. Sometimes ingredient lists are a mile long. Less so here in Europe than what I've seen in America, but nevertheless it is shockingly less natural. I have always though that it makes more sense to just create vegan foods from what you have rather than recreating the things you are choosing not to eat. Warning though, I am not a part of the vegan club, so it is all just opinion.
- InitialLastName 5y ago
  To some extent, it's an attempt to partake in the wider food culture while still following stricter ethical guidelines than those food cultures developed in. Most of the vegans I know can nutrition themselves capably using non-imitation food, but still want to be able to have a pizza on occasion. As much as some in the hackerverse like to pretend it doesn't, eating is both an emotional and an expressive experience for some people. Expecting everyone to be a rational actor in the food world is approximately as reasonable as expecting them to be rational actors in the dating world.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  The ingredient list of an apple is also miles long if you are forced to write it out, you just aren't. There are a million different things "processing" can mean. It can be as innocuous as just chopping something up, or complicated like pickling. Not all of it is bad.
  - CarelessExpert 5y ago
    Certainly true. But, as an example, the Impossible Burger notably has more fat and significantly more salt than its meat-based brethren. Sure, it may be purchased due to a perceived variety of other benefits (sustainability, animal rights, etc) totally unrelated to the healthiness of the product, but it's objectively not a healthier option.
    - La1n 5y ago
      >objectively not a healthier option. I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a whole lot more to "healthiness" than amount of fat and salt.
    - andor 5y ago
      The Impossible Burger has about 12% fat which is quite lean. As far as I understand, the meat in most burgers is around 20% fat. Adding things like breadcrumbs, eggs or onions to the patties will of course change the amount.
elliekelly 5y ago
If you haven’t seen the Impossible Burger episode of South Park yet I think you’d enjoy it.
dundarious 5y ago
Though I have no evidence to back it up, I get the impression that the popular justification for new adherents to veganism has shifted from ethical to health. Its original definition certainly points to the ethical concern: > Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." Only by extension might there be a benefit to humans. However, I think there is a parallel misconception that vegan implies healthy. This is absolutely not always the case! I do see rational health advocates more often use the phrase Whole Food Plant Based, to denote both a non-junk-food vegan diet, and a relaxation of the rule to always dispense with animal products, especially non-food products.
sarakayakomzin 5y ago
>There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle, resulting in the development of more and more advanced food processing technologies designed to synthesize the experience of foods being excluded from the diet. not particularly - would love to see where you get those numbers. many vegans make the choice because it's one of the few things an individual can do to make a (very small) impact on factory farming and a complete waste of resources. in my experience, very few but the uninformed do it for "health reasons" (save for having health problems processing meat or dairy). "processed foods" isn't always a bad thing. overprocessing certainly is, but adding nutrients to food that would otherwise be left out of a diet is pretty important. there are plenty of vegans with malnutrition and plenty that just "eat vegan" which happens to be a steady diet of oreos. > In my mind it's just a bit of a surprising outcome and makes me wonder how folks who consume these products square that circle in their minds. That's because your argument is that "vegan means healthy and not processed"
wvenable 5y ago
It's basically abusing the single metric. You can put "Vegan" on your label if you follow very specific rules and anything outside of those rules is far game. The folks that consume these products have mostly that label and marketing to go by. It's like orange juice advertised as "not from concentrate" which goes through a massive amount of processing just to satisfy that labeling even though it's unlikely any folks consuming the product really want that.
autarch 5y ago
> There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle ... I'm not sure what you base this statement on. There are many people whose initial motivations for going vegan were ethical, either to avoid funding animal abuse, environmental degradation, or both. That was why I went vegan 23.5 years ago, and why I'm still vegan. I eat mock meat and non-dairy cheese because these taste like foods I liked before I went vegan. I didn't stop eating meat and cheese because I thought it tasted bad! I loved it, but I hate what went into its production. Now I can have the foods I like without the negative externalities. That's perfect! That said, my palette has expanded hugely since I first went vegetarian, and I also enjoy all sorts of things I used to really dislike, including more whole foods type dishes, and even raw food.
- CarelessExpert 5y ago
  That's why I said "often embraced", not "always embraced". :) I certainly am not so arrogant as to believe I understand why each and every person eating a vegan diet has made that choice. However, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to claim that a non-trivial number of people make the switch for health reasons, and that these plant-based substitutes are marketed based on claimed health benefits.
  - autarch 5y ago
    Sure, plenty have done it for health reasons, but your comment implied that it was the majority reason. Maybe it is, but I don't know of any good statistics on this. As to whether the plant-based substitutes are healthier, they probably are when compared to the thing they're replacing in nearly all cases. But if you want to optimize your health I'd expect a plant-based diet based on less processed foods would be much better.
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  I totally get ethical vegetarianism, and appreciate that much animal abuse can occur within the dairy industry, but I don't think that's inherent. Of course, believing that and shopping ethically requires a great deal more selectivity and research (and willingness to pay more for food whose provenance can be trusted). Not to pick a fight, but I don't get the basic argument that 'all animal husbandry = unnatural exploitation' given the symbiosis between species like ants and aphids etc. which I can just go and observe in my yard at this time of year.
dokem 5y ago
Yea I don't really get the whole 'health food tech' industry. When I want to feel good or lose weight: Chicken breast, vegetables, water, nuts, rice. It's the same old story, people want to be healthy and diet without actually doing any of that or give up the idea that every meal is supposed to be a treat.
rorykoehler 5y ago
I eat them because dairy cheese triggers my autoimmune condition. They are a god send tbh
toiletfuneral 5y ago
There are ethical vegans and health vegans. The distinction can matter and it's unfortunate, but not unexpected, how much people from both camps deal with the contradictions involved between the 2. I think critiques about what's required to make substitutes is warranted and good for the industry. I also think that increased sales and attention will drive these products towards much better versions in all aspects. So let me thank all the non-vegetarian/vegans who are willing to dabble in these foods once in a while. I truly appreciate any contribution to the reduction of meat intake, regardless of the motivation.
anthony_romeo 5y ago
As with anything, all people have different priorities. Some people prioritize taste in their food. Some health. Some ethics. Though usually it’s some combination of many different priorities. Indeed there are different types of Vegans as well, who don’t like to eat processed foods. I’d guess that most people would prefer to eat less pre-processed food. But most people are all too busy and stressed that they don’t have time to grow their own crops, process our their food, cook meals by hand, AND make lots of money working a full time job selling insurance or whatever. And of course, much of this preprocessing makes food deliberately tastier and store longer, so there are clear benefits. So I’d guess most people are just balancing their food priorities among their needs to, say, interact in society and eat a living while staying full and healthy. Disclaimer: I am not a vegan
mesh 5y ago
In my experience, the vast majority of people go vegan out of concern for animals, and not primarily because they want to be more healthy. Doing a quick search seems to support that, but perhaps the trends / reasons are changing as veganism in general becomes more mainstream. https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-global-survey-results https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-gl... https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-global-survey-results https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-gl...
- Mediterraneo10 5y ago
  Note that the The China Study book a few years ago (and its accompanying cookbooks) brought some people to adopt a solely plant-based diet, but without necessarily referring to themselves as "vegans". Of course, people following such movements may still be a minority of all plant-based-diet eaters, but they are out there if you search beyond fora calling themselves specifically vegan fora.
pessimizer 5y ago
I'd love for vegetable products to be processed skillfully enough that I wouldn't miss animal products. It's not the amount of processing that bothers me, it's the types of processing (and the types of additives.) Processed foods are on average terrible, but any particular heavily processed food might be wonderful for you. This is almost the most important technology being developed right now IMO. Meat is killing us through environmental degradation and disease jumps from domesticated animals to humans. When I hear a "horror story" in the news cycle about there being no meat in a Taco Bell taco or somesuch, I'm like "if only."
hannob 5y ago
I don't think "natural" is not a very good metric or goal to begin with. Is cheese made from milk natural? I think people only believe that because cheese has been around forever, so they consider it being "normal", while they consider the vegan cheese alternatives "unusual". Cheese is both a pretty processed product and not particularly healthy. It's true that there's some relation between "unprocessed" and "healthy" (eat lots of veggies and fruit), but neither cheese from milk nor from plants fits that category. Also that isn't a fundamental law, it's more a "rough guidance". There's no fundamental reason a plant-based product can't be as healthy or healthier as a similar animal-based product.
izgzhen 5y ago
A related question I always had is why many vegan people are pushing so hard for a substitute product just to simulate the flavor of flesh —- many Asian food like Tofu are vegan and natural. Why not embracing and inventing more types of naturally plant based recipes rather than pushing for fake meat?
qudat 5y ago
> Basically, in the quest to return to a more healthy, natural diet, some folks end up moving to foods that are more and more processed. Is less processing always more healthy? It's often touted as such but adding some processing can unlock nutrients vs eating raw, right? Spinach for example, when eaten raw, has less bioavailable iron than if it were "processed" by steaming.
- airstrike 5y ago
  There's a difference between what the parent means by "processing" and simply cooking.
h0l0cube 5y ago
Cheese is a 'processed' food. It's a long article, so I'm not surprised that nearly no-one in the comments has read it, but it goes into a lot of detail about the many small home-made cheese shops that are springing up with processes that more or less match that of the artisanal cheese making process. > A nut is soaked and then blended with water to create a milk base, to which a culture is added. The cultured milk is left to ferment, forming a curd. After the curd is drained through a cheesecloth, it is molded into whatever shape the cheesemaker desires.

cavisne 5y ago

The justification is that they are temporary/bridging foods while transitioning to a whole foods diet. There is not much evidence of this working among vegan influencers (who fill their videos with meat and dairy mimicking meals) but that could be distorted by most product placements being such foods.

CarelessExpert 5y ago
I wonder about that claim. I've never seen the Impossible Burger, for example, pitched as a bridging mechanism. It seems to be purely about food substitution with no expectation that someone would phase that substitute out as they adapt to a plant-based diet. I feel like the pitch is "hey look, you can be vegan/vegetarian and not miss the meat-based foods you love so much!" i.e., you can have your vegetarian cake and eat it, too. But that then gets back to, why switch at all? If it's about ethics, these products make sense. If it's about health, it makes a lot less sense to me.

hvna 5y ago

This is something I've noticed as well. Sometimes ingredient lists are a mile long. Less so here in Europe than what I've seen in America, but nevertheless it is shockingly less natural. I have always though that it makes more sense to just create vegan foods from what you have rather than recreating the things you are choosing not to eat. Warning though, I am not a part of the vegan club, so it is all just opinion.

InitialLastName 5y ago
To some extent, it's an attempt to partake in the wider food culture while still following stricter ethical guidelines than those food cultures developed in. Most of the vegans I know can nutrition themselves capably using non-imitation food, but still want to be able to have a pizza on occasion. As much as some in the hackerverse like to pretend it doesn't, eating is both an emotional and an expressive experience for some people. Expecting everyone to be a rational actor in the food world is approximately as reasonable as expecting them to be rational actors in the dating world.
gameswithgo 5y ago
The ingredient list of an apple is also miles long if you are forced to write it out, you just aren't. There are a million different things "processing" can mean. It can be as innocuous as just chopping something up, or complicated like pickling. Not all of it is bad.
- CarelessExpert 5y ago
  Certainly true. But, as an example, the Impossible Burger notably has more fat and significantly more salt than its meat-based brethren. Sure, it may be purchased due to a perceived variety of other benefits (sustainability, animal rights, etc) totally unrelated to the healthiness of the product, but it's objectively not a healthier option.
  - La1n 5y ago
    >objectively not a healthier option. I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a whole lot more to "healthiness" than amount of fat and salt.
  - andor 5y ago
    The Impossible Burger has about 12% fat which is quite lean. As far as I understand, the meat in most burgers is around 20% fat. Adding things like breadcrumbs, eggs or onions to the patties will of course change the amount.

elliekelly 5y ago

If you haven’t seen the Impossible Burger episode of South Park yet I think you’d enjoy it.

dundarious 5y ago

Though I have no evidence to back it up, I get the impression that the popular justification for new adherents to veganism has shifted from ethical to health. Its original definition certainly points to the ethical concern: > Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." Only by extension might there be a benefit to humans. However, I think there is a parallel misconception that vegan implies healthy. This is absolutely not always the case! I do see rational health advocates more often use the phrase Whole Food Plant Based, to denote both a non-junk-food vegan diet, and a relaxation of the rule to always dispense with animal products, especially non-food products.

sarakayakomzin 5y ago

>There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle, resulting in the development of more and more advanced food processing technologies designed to synthesize the experience of foods being excluded from the diet. not particularly - would love to see where you get those numbers. many vegans make the choice because it's one of the few things an individual can do to make a (very small) impact on factory farming and a complete waste of resources. in my experience, very few but the uninformed do it for "health reasons" (save for having health problems processing meat or dairy). "processed foods" isn't always a bad thing. overprocessing certainly is, but adding nutrients to food that would otherwise be left out of a diet is pretty important. there are plenty of vegans with malnutrition and plenty that just "eat vegan" which happens to be a steady diet of oreos. > In my mind it's just a bit of a surprising outcome and makes me wonder how folks who consume these products square that circle in their minds. That's because your argument is that "vegan means healthy and not processed"

wvenable 5y ago

It's basically abusing the single metric. You can put "Vegan" on your label if you follow very specific rules and anything outside of those rules is far game. The folks that consume these products have mostly that label and marketing to go by. It's like orange juice advertised as "not from concentrate" which goes through a massive amount of processing just to satisfy that labeling even though it's unlikely any folks consuming the product really want that.

autarch 5y ago

> There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle ... I'm not sure what you base this statement on. There are many people whose initial motivations for going vegan were ethical, either to avoid funding animal abuse, environmental degradation, or both. That was why I went vegan 23.5 years ago, and why I'm still vegan. I eat mock meat and non-dairy cheese because these taste like foods I liked before I went vegan. I didn't stop eating meat and cheese because I thought it tasted bad! I loved it, but I hate what went into its production. Now I can have the foods I like without the negative externalities. That's perfect! That said, my palette has expanded hugely since I first went vegetarian, and I also enjoy all sorts of things I used to really dislike, including more whole foods type dishes, and even raw food.

CarelessExpert 5y ago
That's why I said "often embraced", not "always embraced". :) I certainly am not so arrogant as to believe I understand why each and every person eating a vegan diet has made that choice. However, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to claim that a non-trivial number of people make the switch for health reasons, and that these plant-based substitutes are marketed based on claimed health benefits.
- autarch 5y ago
  Sure, plenty have done it for health reasons, but your comment implied that it was the majority reason. Maybe it is, but I don't know of any good statistics on this. As to whether the plant-based substitutes are healthier, they probably are when compared to the thing they're replacing in nearly all cases. But if you want to optimize your health I'd expect a plant-based diet based on less processed foods would be much better.
anigbrowl 5y ago
I totally get ethical vegetarianism, and appreciate that much animal abuse can occur within the dairy industry, but I don't think that's inherent. Of course, believing that and shopping ethically requires a great deal more selectivity and research (and willingness to pay more for food whose provenance can be trusted). Not to pick a fight, but I don't get the basic argument that 'all animal husbandry = unnatural exploitation' given the symbiosis between species like ants and aphids etc. which I can just go and observe in my yard at this time of year.

dokem 5y ago

Yea I don't really get the whole 'health food tech' industry. When I want to feel good or lose weight: Chicken breast, vegetables, water, nuts, rice. It's the same old story, people want to be healthy and diet without actually doing any of that or give up the idea that every meal is supposed to be a treat.

rorykoehler 5y ago

I eat them because dairy cheese triggers my autoimmune condition. They are a god send tbh

toiletfuneral 5y ago

There are ethical vegans and health vegans. The distinction can matter and it's unfortunate, but not unexpected, how much people from both camps deal with the contradictions involved between the 2. I think critiques about what's required to make substitutes is warranted and good for the industry. I also think that increased sales and attention will drive these products towards much better versions in all aspects. So let me thank all the non-vegetarian/vegans who are willing to dabble in these foods once in a while. I truly appreciate any contribution to the reduction of meat intake, regardless of the motivation.

anthony_romeo 5y ago

As with anything, all people have different priorities. Some people prioritize taste in their food. Some health. Some ethics. Though usually it’s some combination of many different priorities. Indeed there are different types of Vegans as well, who don’t like to eat processed foods. I’d guess that most people would prefer to eat less pre-processed food. But most people are all too busy and stressed that they don’t have time to grow their own crops, process our their food, cook meals by hand, AND make lots of money working a full time job selling insurance or whatever. And of course, much of this preprocessing makes food deliberately tastier and store longer, so there are clear benefits. So I’d guess most people are just balancing their food priorities among their needs to, say, interact in society and eat a living while staying full and healthy. Disclaimer: I am not a vegan

mesh 5y ago

In my experience, the vast majority of people go vegan out of concern for animals, and not primarily because they want to be more healthy. Doing a quick search seems to support that, but perhaps the trends / reasons are changing as veganism in general becomes more mainstream. https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-global-survey-results https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-gl... https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-global-survey-results https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-gl...

Mediterraneo10 5y ago
Note that the The China Study book a few years ago (and its accompanying cookbooks) brought some people to adopt a solely plant-based diet, but without necessarily referring to themselves as "vegans". Of course, people following such movements may still be a minority of all plant-based-diet eaters, but they are out there if you search beyond fora calling themselves specifically vegan fora.

pessimizer 5y ago

I'd love for vegetable products to be processed skillfully enough that I wouldn't miss animal products. It's not the amount of processing that bothers me, it's the types of processing (and the types of additives.) Processed foods are on average terrible, but any particular heavily processed food might be wonderful for you. This is almost the most important technology being developed right now IMO. Meat is killing us through environmental degradation and disease jumps from domesticated animals to humans. When I hear a "horror story" in the news cycle about there being no meat in a Taco Bell taco or somesuch, I'm like "if only."

hannob 5y ago

I don't think "natural" is not a very good metric or goal to begin with. Is cheese made from milk natural? I think people only believe that because cheese has been around forever, so they consider it being "normal", while they consider the vegan cheese alternatives "unusual". Cheese is both a pretty processed product and not particularly healthy. It's true that there's some relation between "unprocessed" and "healthy" (eat lots of veggies and fruit), but neither cheese from milk nor from plants fits that category. Also that isn't a fundamental law, it's more a "rough guidance". There's no fundamental reason a plant-based product can't be as healthy or healthier as a similar animal-based product.

izgzhen 5y ago

A related question I always had is why many vegan people are pushing so hard for a substitute product just to simulate the flavor of flesh —- many Asian food like Tofu are vegan and natural. Why not embracing and inventing more types of naturally plant based recipes rather than pushing for fake meat?

qudat 5y ago

> Basically, in the quest to return to a more healthy, natural diet, some folks end up moving to foods that are more and more processed. Is less processing always more healthy? It's often touted as such but adding some processing can unlock nutrients vs eating raw, right? Spinach for example, when eaten raw, has less bioavailable iron than if it were "processed" by steaming.

airstrike 5y ago
There's a difference between what the parent means by "processing" and simply cooking.

h0l0cube 5y ago

Cheese is a 'processed' food. It's a long article, so I'm not surprised that nearly no-one in the comments has read it, but it goes into a lot of detail about the many small home-made cheese shops that are springing up with processes that more or less match that of the artisanal cheese making process. > A nut is soaked and then blended with water to create a milk base, to which a culture is added. The cultured milk is left to ferment, forming a curd. After the curd is drained through a cheesecloth, it is molded into whatever shape the cheesemaker desires.