4 ms·

So, basically, Greg is kind of a jerk too. I mean I respect the dude for all the work he does but man his back and forth with an honest person and jump to ascri

by dcow 6y ago

So, basically, Greg is kind of a jerk too. I mean I respect the dude for all the work he does but man his back and forth with an honest person and jump to ascribe malice looks pretty bad in this light. An apology might be in order.

tofuahdude 6y ago
What? Greg's open-source work was maliciously attacked by the exact same actor who then submits incompetent patch requests. I think he responded in a totally appropriate manner. He does not owe these people anything - and certainly not kindness after their track record.
- dcow 6y ago
  It wasn't the same person and it wasn't an attack. Read the LWN article. > The writing of a paper on this research [PDF] was not the immediate cause of the recent events; instead, it was the posting of a buggy patch originating from an experimental static-analysis tool run by another developer at UMN. That led developers in the kernel community to suspect that the effort to submit intentionally malicious patches was still ongoing. Since then, it has become apparent that this is not the case, but by the time the full story became clear, the discussion was already running at full speed.
  - tofuahdude 6y ago
    By "actor" I was referring to the institutionally untrustworthy UMN, but since you seem interested in splitting hairs, you should probably realize in doing so that Aditya Pakki === Aditya Pakki. Notice that Aditya is one of the signers of the apology letter: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CAK8KejpUVLxmqp026JY7x5GzHU2YJLPU8SzTZUNXU2OXC70ZQQ@mail.gmail.com/T/#u https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CAK8KejpUVLxmqp026JY7x5GzHU2YJL... And that several of the identified vulnerabilities were tied to Aditya: https://lwn.net/ml/linux-kernel/YH+zwQgBBGUJdiVK@unreal/ https://lwn.net/ml/linux-kernel/YH+zwQgBBGUJdiVK@unreal/
    - re 6y ago
      Aditya's commits--though some were low-quality and/or buggy, including the one you linked--were not part of the intentionally deceptive "hypocrite commits" project.
    - seoaeu 6y ago
      UMN has many tens of thousands of students and faculty, on a similar scale to say Mountain View. It isn't "splitting hairs" to distinguish between the actual people involved in the untrustworthy behavior and everyone else.
re 6y ago
I don't think Greg was totally off base, though I do think he could have been more restrained. Aditya was essentially spamming the reviewers with bad patches and doing zero due diligence, including, significantly, not responding to anyone pointing out flaws in the commits[0]; he did get the benefit of the doubt at first and had the opportunity to clear things up. Ultimately though he was collateral damage of his advisor's involvement with the previous study. One of the risks of deception studies, especially if performed unethically or irresponsibly, is that loss of trust. Edit: While I don't think that suspicions or distrust were unreasonable, Leon's declaration that the commits were a direct continuation of the "hypocrite" research did escalate things unnecessarily[1]. I'm disappointed, though not surprised, by how many people--both commenters and tech news outlets--ran with that as the story at face value. [0] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210407155031.GA1014852@redhat.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210407155031.GA1014852@redhat... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/bd3c84bc-6ae0-63e9-61f2-5cf64a976531@gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/bd3c84bc-6ae0-63e9-61f2-5cf64a9... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210407153458.GA28924@fieldses.org/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210407153458.GA28924@fieldses... [1] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/YH+zwQgBBGUJdiVK@unreal/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/YH+zwQgBBGUJdiVK@unreal/
- staticassertion 6y ago
  Not sure if you're aware of how many students commit to the Kernel in exactly the same way Aditya did, but it's a shitload. Other maintainers have pointed this out, the response is guidance, not insults and slander.

by dcow 6y ago

tofuahdude 6y ago

What? Greg's open-source work was maliciously attacked by the exact same actor who then submits incompetent patch requests. I think he responded in a totally appropriate manner. He does not owe these people anything - and certainly not kindness after their track record.

dcow 6y ago
It wasn't the same person and it wasn't an attack. Read the LWN article. > The writing of a paper on this research [PDF] was not the immediate cause of the recent events; instead, it was the posting of a buggy patch originating from an experimental static-analysis tool run by another developer at UMN. That led developers in the kernel community to suspect that the effort to submit intentionally malicious patches was still ongoing. Since then, it has become apparent that this is not the case, but by the time the full story became clear, the discussion was already running at full speed.
- tofuahdude 6y ago
  By "actor" I was referring to the institutionally untrustworthy UMN, but since you seem interested in splitting hairs, you should probably realize in doing so that Aditya Pakki === Aditya Pakki. Notice that Aditya is one of the signers of the apology letter: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CAK8KejpUVLxmqp026JY7x5GzHU2YJLPU8SzTZUNXU2OXC70ZQQ@mail.gmail.com/T/#u https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CAK8KejpUVLxmqp026JY7x5GzHU2YJL... And that several of the identified vulnerabilities were tied to Aditya: https://lwn.net/ml/linux-kernel/YH+zwQgBBGUJdiVK@unreal/ https://lwn.net/ml/linux-kernel/YH+zwQgBBGUJdiVK@unreal/
  - re 6y ago
    Aditya's commits--though some were low-quality and/or buggy, including the one you linked--were not part of the intentionally deceptive "hypocrite commits" project.
  - seoaeu 6y ago
    UMN has many tens of thousands of students and faculty, on a similar scale to say Mountain View. It isn't "splitting hairs" to distinguish between the actual people involved in the untrustworthy behavior and everyone else.

re 6y ago

I don't think Greg was totally off base, though I do think he could have been more restrained. Aditya was essentially spamming the reviewers with bad patches and doing zero due diligence, including, significantly, not responding to anyone pointing out flaws in the commits[0]; he did get the benefit of the doubt at first and had the opportunity to clear things up. Ultimately though he was collateral damage of his advisor's involvement with the previous study. One of the risks of deception studies, especially if performed unethically or irresponsibly, is that loss of trust. Edit: While I don't think that suspicions or distrust were unreasonable, Leon's declaration that the commits were a direct continuation of the "hypocrite" research did escalate things unnecessarily[1]. I'm disappointed, though not surprised, by how many people--both commenters and tech news outlets--ran with that as the story at face value. [0] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210407155031.GA1014852@redhat.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210407155031.GA1014852@redhat... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/bd3c84bc-6ae0-63e9-61f2-5cf64a976531@gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/bd3c84bc-6ae0-63e9-61f2-5cf64a9... https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210407153458.GA28924@fieldses.org/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210407153458.GA28924@fieldses... [1] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/YH+zwQgBBGUJdiVK@unreal/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/YH+zwQgBBGUJdiVK@unreal/

staticassertion 6y ago
Not sure if you're aware of how many students commit to the Kernel in exactly the same way Aditya did, but it's a shitload. Other maintainers have pointed this out, the response is guidance, not insults and slander.