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Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
- TWAndrews 15y agoSeems like an odd time to do this, given the strict new law (http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/23/dutch-parliament-passes-strict-new-law-regulating-cookies-the http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/23/dutch-parliament-passes-s...) on cookies that the Dutch Parliament just passed.
- redmar 15y agoOTOH: the same article also states: "... the Dutch parliament made a bit of history by passing the first net neutrality legislation in the EU. ...". Also i've heard the cookie law isn't as strict as everybody thinks it is, but i'm still searching for a good source explicitly stating what the cookie law includes.
- TWAndrews 15y agoTrue enough. I can see how the cookie law has the intention of making the internet a better place for users, I just suspect that it's highly unlikely to do so, if what I understand about it is correct. My understanding is that it requires not only an affirmative acceptance from users of cookies, but requires that the site placing the cookie be able to prove that the user did, in fact, provide said acceptance.
- rtuck 15y agoLegally speaking, the larger problem is probably immigration law. The anti-foreigner sentiment here is driving a set of ever more annoying laws and processes. To digress a bit: For the non-EU crowd, the easiest way into the country is probably with a kennismigrant (knowledge worker) visa. This entitles you to a faster, easier process but there's a few problems: You must work for a company with (or willing to apply for) a special license to have a knowledge worker, you must make over a certain salary, and you're not allowed to do any other sort of work while living here (yes, that probably means your side startup). Supposedly, you can also set up your own business here and work for yourself directly but I've never met anyone who's successfully done it. I expect you'll probably need to hire a decent lawyer to help sort it out. Immigration aside, the Netherlands is a nice place to work and there's more to Amsterdam itself then pot and prostitutes. Something interesting is always going on and there's plenty of smart folks bouncing around. Personally, I hope this whole Appsterdam concept (mobile-centric name aside) turns into a huge hit.
- NonEUCitizen 15y agoThe Kennismigrant visa is indeed an advantage and quick to get, but not an advantage over other EU countries for long. Most EU countries are about to start implementing the EU Blue Card visa (supposedly starting July). However, more important than ease of visa processing is that as a Kennismigrant, you can usually get the "30% rule" tax break -- first 30% of your income is tax-free, AND the first euro after the 30% is taxed at the lowest tax bracket (i.e. the other 70% is adjusted down in tax bracket). You don't even need to be non-EU to get the 30% rule -- e.g. if you're a Danish or German or Spaniard, and get recruited to the Netherlands specifically for "knowledge work," you can qualify for this tax break too. It's good for 10 years. If you're married, try to see if your spouse can also get a job with this tax break BEFORE you accept your job offer and move to NL. Make sure you don't go to university or grad school in NL tho, because you have to have been recruited to NL specifically as a highly skilled worker to qualify for this tax break. If you were already in NL for school, you tend to get disqualified for this 30% rule.
- tarkin2 15y agoThat cookie law, for those just scanning the comments, is EU in origin. All member-states have to implement. Nothing's really being done about it, enforcement-wise, from what I can tell. The UK has just recently given all businesses an extra year to get their stuff together. The law, by the way, is only restrictive to analytics cookies, basically, if that analytics service is from a third-party. You have to get express permission from the user if cookies are being used to monitor their activities in ways that are not essential to the site i.e. you don't need to ask for permission if you're using cookies to implement an online shopping basket, as that's essential fairly essential to all online businesses. A blog monitoring user activity, however, would need to get express user permission.
- blahedo 15y agoEU in origin but Netherlands have added to it by requiring companies to be able to retain proof that every user had been asked for their permission. My understanding is that the base version, the EU-wide model, would require companies to show that yes, here's the code, before sending a cookie we request permission; but there's a higher level of proof required in NL.
- Meai 15y agoIt would be helpful if the initiators of Appsterdam worked on gathering information relevant for startups. What makes Amsterdam better than Berlin, Vienna... basically any other city. What are the legal conditions in the Netherlands - especially in regard to founding a company and getting accepted as an immigrant, what other companies are already situated there (foremost what their experiences are), and how the living conditions and foremost prices are there for example. I'm from Europe, but that doesn't mean I have extensive knowledge on cross border work laws, just like Americans won't have that. And of course what Appsterdam actually is...who is the driving force behind it right now, and what kind of force that is = What do you want to do? Organize a few social meetings between founders of startup companies? Is that the extent of Appsterdam? I think it's awesome, I just also think you should be clearer about your intent. Just stating "I want to be the next Google / Silicon Valley / Ipod, doesn't really uniquely identify you :)
- vanelsas 15y agoCheck the site http://appsterdam.rs http://appsterdam.rs It is going to be much more than an information hub, the aim is to turn it into a movement. Given the enthusiasm of the crowd there yesterday I'm pretty sure it will turn into something big.
- DeusExMachina 15y agoI'm one of the volunteers in Appsterdam and I can tell you we will do all of it, and more ;) A quick list: - Creation of a community with meetings and drinks. - Weekly lectures about technology that will also give speaker training. - Provide legal and local information to people that will move here, like immigration policies and the like. - Arranging of venues to work in and be around with other developer: we have the Appsterdam HQ; Igluu and Vodafone will offer a work space for a good price and with facilities like a lab with smartphones for testing; we will locate developer friendly cafes with free wifi. - Family get togethers in the weekends, so our partners/spouses/children can create a network too. - The university is interested in creating a course where developers are professors like in (if I'm correct) Berkeley. - The government is interested in giving money for tech projects. - At the party Mike announced that there will also be a fund for startups (called Appsterfund). Maybe I'm forgetting something. Soon the video of the keynote will be online. Edit: formatting
- JVerstry 15y agoGreat initiative, but there is no way to 'join' Appsterdam. I could not even find a Facebook Group. How do people connect with each other online?
- upthedale 15y ago> a location that’s far less expensive, and easier to immigrate to, than Silicon Valley. 4 years ago I travelled (mostly-) western Europe by train, staying in some of the big cities. Compared to the likes of Paris, Barcelona, Rome and Munich, I felt Amsterdam was a lot more expensive. Of course times may have changed, and the comparison was to Silicon Valley, which I have no experience of, but it struck me as a strange point to pick out when I would have considered there to be more compelling arguments specifically about Amsterdam.
- DeusExMachina 15y agoI made a quick search on Google and Amsterdam turns out to be less expensive than the cities you cited. First two links: http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/expensive-cities-europe.html http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/expensive-cities-europe... http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm
- trimbo 15y agoAccording those links, San Francisco or San Jose aren't even in the top 50 most expensive. Every time I read one of these "the Valley is moving to X" articles, I'm reminded of the last 15 years of "the Valley is moving to X" articles that haven't come true. Tech is a huge industry, and growth allows for jobs everywhere. I don't know why all of these articles have to be phrased as if jobs need to leave the Valley to make it happen.
- DeusExMachina 15y agoMike just wrote a blog post about how much expensive Amsterdam is: http://mur.mu.rs/?p=179 http://mur.mu.rs/?p=179 About the "the Valley is moving to X" I can tell you our objective is not to move the Valley here. What we want to really accomplish is to build the some sort of evolution of it. We want to build a great community and make Amsterdam the technology and innovation center in Europe. The outcome looks bright and we are very optimistic about it. We definitely do not need to move the Valley here for Appsterdam to be successful, Europe is full of great talent. But of course people from the Valley are welcome as well and can make our community richer.
- c4urself 15y agoLess expensive? not by much is my bet: Amsterdam is the most expensive city in Holland and one of the more expensive ones in Europe (Scandinavian countries + London may be worse is my estimate). It's also impossible to find housing. As far as immigration is concerned, one can fall under the category "kennis-migranten" (loosely translated as knowledge-workers) pretty easily, as long as the company sponsoring you is willing to pay the money, around 50K (Pay is not like the Valley, but I'm guessing this is doable). There is the possibility of starting a company as an American citizen due to a WW2-era Dutch-American Friendship treaty (see http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm) As far as startups I know of in Amsterdam, there is Fashiolista, and Sofa used to be there...
- DeusExMachina 15y agoImpossible to find housing is not my experience. I moved here one year ago from Italy. Got an apartment from my first company for 2 months, then rented a shared apartment with other two people. After a few months I got a mortgage with no money down and moved in my own house not far away from the center, and the government reimburses me part of that every month. If we speak about renting prices, I can agree they are high, but from what I heard they are still less expensive than in the valley. Places to rent also go really quickly, but impossible is another thing.
- tomh- 15y agoThe rent is very high in Amsterdam, and it is really difficult to find good housing in Amsterdam in a decent neighborhood. The rent might be lower than the valley, but don't forget that Dutch salaries can easily be half of what you can get in the valley too.
- NonEUCitizen 15y agoRent is high. It's also difficult to find housing because most places use "Makelaars" (rental agents), and they tend to only want to show the apartments during office hours on weekdays.
- pg 15y agoI've always felt Amsterdam would make a good startup hub. It has the right sort of atmosphere. Civilized without being pretentious.
- spif 15y agoThe startup scene _is_ growing into a hub actually, although some elements (e.g. capital) are hard, others easier (hiring, advice). That feels like an honor coming from you, thanks. Have you been in Amsterdam often?
- tomh- 15y agoHow is it growing in a hub exactly? Where do all founders of successful startups hang out? There are some startups out there in Amsterdam, but there are many in other cities too (Utrecht, Delft, Enschede etc.). Amsterdam is definitely not a clear winner as location to found a startup among cities in Holland.
- ElDragonRojo 15y agoHow is it growing as a hub exactly? Did you actually read the article? ;) Luckily Appsterdam is not limited to Amsterdam. This isn't a pissing match between Dutch cities. It's about international branding. Appschede doesn't sound as good. Most people associate Delft with pottery. Americans have never heard of Utrecht. As far as most people are concerned, these places are features of Amsterdam. But if you're in the Netherlands, we're a train ride away, and you're always welcome to come up for an event or a meeting.
- eelco 15y agoUtrecht, a whole city to buy your art supplies.
- tomh- 15y agoOne initiative doesn't make it a hub. If you found a startup in Holland, there are plenty of other cities which are suitable to found. The distances are sort of close, so the reasons why you HQ your startup in the valley are not exactly applicable to Amsterdam, you get the same benefits in most other big cities with talent. You are right it is not a pissing contest, but you mention exactly what Americans (or other foreigners) would think. Most foreigners don't know much about Holland and see everything as a sub-urb of Amsterdam. They don't know where the local talent is, where the good universities are, where (local) people want to live. Don't forget that Dutch people think Amsterdam is as cool as foreigners do. Don't take me wrong, Appsterdam is a cool initiative, but to me it sounds like something by foreigners, for foreigners.
- ianterrell 15y ago> Now that Sofa has been acquired by Facebook, the company’s team (ironically enough) will be moving to Palo Alto. But Lee said he doesn’t expect that to affect on Appsterdam’s future... If the founders don't believe in their own product enough to use it, it's going to fail.
- DeusExMachina 15y agoSofa contributed, but they are not "the founders" and this is not a "product" at all. Moreover they are moving because they have been acquired, so it has nothing to do with Appsterdam (apart of telling that this city is a fertile ground for good companies). More on the subject on this post: http://mur.mu.rs/?p=156 http://mur.mu.rs/?p=156
- ianterrell 15y agoIt was just a metaphor, and while imperfect I think it does express some grain of truth (not all of it, naturally).
- Caballera 15y agoI don't think what you said had any sort of truth. Sofa has been purchased by another company, they are moving because they were bought not because they don't believe in Appsterdam.
- ianterrell 15y agoThe blog post linked in your grandparent showed that one developer left the company to stay, because they believed in Appsterdam. The implication is that other developers did not. Everyone made a choice here, including the owners of Sofa when they sold.
- DeusExMachina 15y agoNo, your logic is wrong, the implication is not that. It simply means that they chose Facebook offer because it made more sense for them, even though they totally believed in the initiative. There is no logic implication that says otherwise and definitely is not in Mike's article, that is just an opinion of yours you are trying to support.
- deciara 15y agoI'm writing the follow-up on this for VentureBeat. Should be out tomorrow and will answer a lot of these questions. But there are several things I liked about Appsterdam. It's a bottom-up, developer-led movement rather than a top-down, government program. It's about creating a haven for indie developers who want to live in a place that is in line with hacker values and have a life as well as a job.
- rjh29 15y agoI thought this was funny: http://appsterdam.rs/events http://appsterdam.rs/events Starts: Wednesday 06/29/2011 - 19:00 Ends: Wednesday 06/29/2011 - 19:00 US-dates coupled with "Americans can visit for three months without a visa. Pack up the family for a summer vacation in Europe." make me wonder how much this thing is targeting Americans over, you know, us Europeans who don't already have a Silicon Valley.
- DeusExMachina 15y agoDon't worry, it's for Europeans and Americans equally. But Europeans (as me) do not need a visa and can come here anytime without any problem. This is the only reason for that sentence. We had around 150 people at the launch keynote. There were some Americans, but the majority were people from around all Europe. Edit: BTW, thank you for the report, I notified the person responsible for the website about the error.
- grimlck 15y agoAre the events in english or in dutch?
- ElDragonRojo 15y agoAppsterdam events are in English. Other tech events in the city are usually some mixture of English and Dutch, depending on whether the audience is international.
- rdouble 15y agoAmsterdam is neat but the Dutch hackers I know all choose to live in California because of the weather.
- DeusExMachina 15y agoIMO the summer here is great. It's not too hot and I love to bike in the summer breeze. In these days the sun sets at 10pm. Of course there are trade-offs, and you have to go through the winter which in California does not exist.
- rdouble 15y agoI was thinking more about the drizzly rain. I've only been there about 10 days total but it rained every day (in the summer.)
- DeusExMachina 15y agoIn the summer it definitely rains more than in the winter, but not that much. Sometimes the weather turns bad for some days as you experienced (and as it happened last week). Overall I don't think it rains that much, I can count on one hand the times I had to wear the raincoat on my bike during the last months (I bike every day). Drizzle is bearable in my opinion, but of course does not compare to an always sunny weather. I prefer much more a changing weather and changing seasons to constant weather, but that's definitely very personal.
- ElDragonRojo 15y agoRain doesn't bother me. Smog bothers me. Tasers bother me. Not being able to afford healthcare bothers me. My family has been in California for six generations, and I love it, but you can have it. I'll take the Netherlands.
- rdouble 15y agoWhat made you choose Amsterdam instead of Berlin, Barcelona, Paris or other European city?
- fmw 15y agoAmsterdam is somewhat of a creative hub here in the Netherlands, with a lot of designers, photographers, advertising people and other creative types. There are also a number of good, but relatively expensive, data centers where you can host your servers. It has never really been a technical hub, though. Most technically focussed businesses (including startups) in the Netherlands seem to be in places like Eindhoven (with the technical university and Philips campus at its core) and other towns with technical universities, like Delft and Twente. Amsterdam is a bit of a hipster town, like people who work in advertising or make iOS applications, not a nirvana for nerds. One of the exceptions seems to be the CWI at the Amsterdam Science Center, which is were Guido van Rossum started working on Python. That being said, there is some technical talent in the Netherlands and distances are small enough that you can attract people from towns like Eindhoven to work at a startup in Amsterdam. Most people also speak English, allowing easier cooperation with foreign co-workers and customers. Downsides of the Netherlands are bad conditions for immigrants, high taxes (expect to pay over 50% on income tax alone), high cost of labour due to all kinds of government enforced perks like daycare and a lot of free time, business-unfriendly labour law, bureaucracy and the lack of an entrepreneurial culture. Technical and scientific education is also declining in both popularity and quality, despite the half hearted efforts of our government to position the country as a "knowledge economy". Getting a visum is relatively easy for immigrants from the EU and US (there is a special treaty with the US to enable easier immigration), but immigrants may be forced by the government to participate in expensive language and integration courses due to a streak of xenophobic politics in the last ~10 years. Amsterdam has a reputation as a liberal city and a "gay capital". There seems to be some correlation between a vibrant gay culture and tech hubs, if you look at Tel Aviv and San Francisco. I hope that Amsterdam can turn the current decline around in that respect, because the city isn't as gay-friendly as it used to be anymore (according to the homosexual community; I can't report from first hand experience here). Homosexual couples are apparently harassed and beaten by groups of second and third generation immigrants from muslim countries (whom are quite prevalent here). A homosexual couple (or visually distinguishable Jew for that matter) will get harassed, bullied out of immigrant neighborhoods and in some cases physically threatened or worse. This development is accompanied with a rather ugly, xenophobic and isolationist political movement rooted in the lower middle classes that feel left behind in the current economy. Their main political hero, Geert Wilders, gained popularity by constantly picking on muslim immigrants in the rudest possible manner and is currently heading the second biggest party in Dutch parliament. The other parties have silently adopted a similar tough stance on non-Western immigrants to retain or win back voters, but usually without the ugly rhetoric. The tolerant atmosphere that brought intellectuals from Descartes, to John Adams to Einstein to our country seems to be in peril. I think Amsterdam has potential for startups. Particularly in the creative and mobile apps industry. That being said, the current entrepreneurial atmosphere in the Netherlands isn't great and I doubt that we will be able to compete with places like Silicon Valley. I think it won't attract many foreign founders before some of the cultural problems are solved (I'm pessimistic and distrust any government initiatives in that respect because politicians won't be able to create a startup culture) and the town becomes a local tech hub in its own right (competing with towns like Eindhoven). But this is a cool initiative. I'm sure it will do at least some good and will be valuable to the participants. I'm not in Amsterdam, but as a Dutch hacker I might drop by one of the meetings at some point.
- stickhandle 15y agoRidiculous ... location doesn't matter. GET TO WORK BUILDING SOMETHING USEFUL !!
- econgeeker 15y agoWas able to find the "Dutch American Friendship Treaty". This means it is relatively straightforward for americans to set up a business in the netherlands. But not cheap. For a three person business, it looks like it would cost $15,000 in "capital" and around $7,500 in lawyers and other services to prepare the necessary paperwork (based on Mike Lee's estimates and the fact that our business has more than one person, so would need to incorporate.) It seems wrong to me to put about $15k in the bank to do nothing when there's far more than that already invested in the business (Which is existing already) and the value of the business is more than that. Will wait for the appsterdamers to get more details out. Maybe the situation is different for relocating an existing business.
- BasDirks 15y agoThere was recently an article in de Volkskrant (a major Dutch newspaper) describing Twente (an area in the east of the Netherlands) as the European "valley" for high-tech, with quite a few world-leaders in niche technology's. I will go through my pile of old newspapers to see if I can find it, but it was from quite a while ago. If someone else has it or knows where people can read it, I'd appreciate it if you'd share it. As I live about 30km (~18 miles) from Amsterdam, I will try to attend a meeting.
- sebilasse 15y agohaving worked in Amsterdam for quite a while, i can highly recommend this place. It is one of the prettiest and most liveable cities I experienced. People are down to earth, speak excellent English and love to party. Everything is accessible by bike (no need for car/public transport). Finding an affordable place to live is hard, but that's the case with every city/area worth living. I didn't find it particularly expensive, my feeling is that it's in the middle range of Europe. Downsides are bad weather, long winter, and if you're short then 180cm you feel quite insignificant.
- paulnelligan 15y agoI feel that Berlin is a far better startup hub than Amsterdam: It's cheaper, has far more space, and many creative people and programmers ... That's why I'm moving THERE and not Amsterdam ...
- deciara 15y agoVentureBeat's follow-up. Appsterdam: A haven for Indie app makers? http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/27/appsterdam-a-haven-for-indie-developers/ http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/27/appsterdam-a-haven-for-ind...