6 ms·

Imagine what Facebook's app would do if they didn't have to play within App Store rules.

by sjnu 5y ago

manigandham 5y ago
It would be WeChat, which is an entire ecosystem and OS within itself. Apple seems to regret letting that one through and is determined to not let it happen again.
tass 5y ago
You can choose not to install their app unless it’s provided through the App Store. It would be a significant barrier to entry for them to completely remove it, and I imagine they would lose many users if they did so.
- sbuk 5y ago
  Who is responsible for issues caused by Epic's store? What are the ramifications from an API point of view? Will having another store change the limitiations imposed on what can or can't be done? If so, people already have a choice - Android.
  - manigandham 5y ago
    The OS limitations are separate from the storefront. The Epic launcher on Windows can’t provide more underlying functionality than Steam, but it can compete on pricing and features.
    - sbuk 5y ago
      So what value does an alternative store provide? (No snark intended, genuine question)
      - didibus 5y ago
        Apps and in-game purchases could be cheaper. In theory, Epic could pass all that 30% apple cut in savings you.
      - mywittyname 5y ago
        The option to install applications that are censored by the the Default App Store for whatever reason. Plus, this case probably has pretty far reaching implications on the future of computing. If Apple is allowed to lock down their phones & tables, can they do so with Mac OSX? If Apple can do so with OSX, can Microsoft do the same and lock down Windows to prevent apps from being installed outside of their App Store? If Microsoft can lock down Windows like iOS/OSX, can Dell lock down their servers to prevent other operating systems from being installed?
      - raydev 5y ago
        Another reply said "censor" which implies speech, but Apple's rejections can be more fundamental. Have an app you want to ship? Apple gets to decide whether you meet "minimum functionality requirements". You cannot distribute your app to paying consumers without their approval. Doing something truly unique, perhaps with some hardware in the phone? Apple may decide they simply do not want this feature in an app on the App Store. Which means you cannot distribute your app to consumers. I'm less concerned about having other "stores," I just want a way to buy apps from legit developers that don't involve Apple dictating look and feel and entire feature sets. You know, the same way I can purchase and run software on a Mac without Apple being involved in the transaction.
      - johnnyanmac 5y ago
        Apple's rules are completely arbituary, so many apps simply don't exist due to vague guidelines. There are zero 4chan apps on the app store, but a dozen reddit apps (which is ironic given recent news over there). There are dozens of these odd edge cases based on Apple's whimsy that just means there are zero IOS options for what Android has dozens of, even before getting into "obviously" banned content like adult apps and piracy. So while a few (like, literally 5-10) blockbuster game companies may take the PC launcher route if this wins, there are several smaller time apps that can benefit form this if the app store wasn't the only source of downloading here.
      - manigandham 5y ago
        Being able to have Microsoft XCloud (and other cloud gaming) as a native app instead of forced to only have the Apple games/arcade. This is one example of a completely legitimate scenario in a very popular entertainment category and yet it's blocked because of Apple's arbitrary rules of what you can do on your own device.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
It still has to run on the IPhone and ask for location, ad ID, etc. from iOS. Where the app comes from doesn't change that it must make the same system calls as everything else.
- nodamage 5y ago
  Except if they weren't subject to App Store rules they would likely bypass the advertising ID and do their own fingerprinting instead.
  - manigandham 5y ago
    You're logged into the app. They don't need to fingerprint anything.
    - nodamage 5y ago
      Maybe in the Facebook app, but not necessarily in the Facebook SDK which is integrated by other apps for ads/auth/analytics.
      - manigandham 5y ago
        SDK abilities don’t depend on the storefront, that’s up to the OS. Apple store is just informational. Either way users should be able to choose what they install and from where.
        nodamage 5y ago
        All apps on iOS need to pass App Store review, which means all apps that integrate third-party SDKs need to ensure those SDKs don't violate App Store policies, including policies on fingerprinting. Apple has already started to deny approval of apps using third-party SDKs that violate user tracking policies on iOS 14.
        5y ago
johnnyanmac 5y ago
What does it do on Google's app store? If they are still playing by google's rules, why would they take themselves off Apple's store? is Apple's data more valuable than Google's? These kinds of theoreticals have likely already been addressed with Apple's biggest competitor. Androids aren't known to be virus ridden privacy compromising devices. At least, no more than any device with communication antennas installed.
- nodamage 5y ago
  > Androids aren't known to be virus ridden privacy compromising devices. I mean, statistically, they kind of are. From Nokia's Threat Intelligence Report for 2020 (https://www.nokia.com/networks/portfolio/cyber-security/threat-intelligence-report-2020/ https://www.nokia.com/networks/portfolio/cyber-security/thre...): Figure 3 provides a breakdown of infections by device type in 2020. Among smartphones, Android devices are the most commonly targeted by malware. Android devices were responsible for 26.64% of all infections, Windows/PCs for 38.92%, IoT devices for 32.72% and only 1.72% for iPhones.
  - johnnyanmac 5y ago
    statistically, maybe. But it's more about mindshare in cases like these. IoT devices based on your report is even more prone to compromises, but there's not much fear for a person's fridge being compromised. And as always, these cases come down to how many people really concern themselves with that risk. Windows has had that reputation, but it hasn't helped Apple that much in terms of Mac adoption, let alone Linux.
    - nodamage 5y ago
      I'm not sure why mindshare is relevant? You might not worry much about your fridge being compromised, but these days smartphones contain a lot of personal data which could be very problematic if compromised. There is even Android malware out there that steals 2FA codes.
      - 5y ago

Imagine what Facebook's app would do if they didn't have to play within App Store rules.

by sjnu 5y ago

Imagine what Facebook's app would do if they didn't have to play within App Store rules.

It would be WeChat, which is an entire ecosystem and OS within itself. Apple seems to regret letting that one through and is determined to not let it happen again.

tass 5y ago

You can choose not to install their app unless it’s provided through the App Store. It would be a significant barrier to entry for them to completely remove it, and I imagine they would lose many users if they did so.

sbuk 5y ago
Who is responsible for issues caused by Epic's store? What are the ramifications from an API point of view? Will having another store change the limitiations imposed on what can or can't be done? If so, people already have a choice - Android.
- manigandham 5y ago
  The OS limitations are separate from the storefront. The Epic launcher on Windows can’t provide more underlying functionality than Steam, but it can compete on pricing and features.
  - sbuk 5y ago
    So what value does an alternative store provide? (No snark intended, genuine question)
    - didibus 5y ago
      Apps and in-game purchases could be cheaper. In theory, Epic could pass all that 30% apple cut in savings you.
    - mywittyname 5y ago
      The option to install applications that are censored by the the Default App Store for whatever reason. Plus, this case probably has pretty far reaching implications on the future of computing. If Apple is allowed to lock down their phones & tables, can they do so with Mac OSX? If Apple can do so with OSX, can Microsoft do the same and lock down Windows to prevent apps from being installed outside of their App Store? If Microsoft can lock down Windows like iOS/OSX, can Dell lock down their servers to prevent other operating systems from being installed?
    - raydev 5y ago
      Another reply said "censor" which implies speech, but Apple's rejections can be more fundamental. Have an app you want to ship? Apple gets to decide whether you meet "minimum functionality requirements". You cannot distribute your app to paying consumers without their approval. Doing something truly unique, perhaps with some hardware in the phone? Apple may decide they simply do not want this feature in an app on the App Store. Which means you cannot distribute your app to consumers. I'm less concerned about having other "stores," I just want a way to buy apps from legit developers that don't involve Apple dictating look and feel and entire feature sets. You know, the same way I can purchase and run software on a Mac without Apple being involved in the transaction.
    - johnnyanmac 5y ago
      Apple's rules are completely arbituary, so many apps simply don't exist due to vague guidelines. There are zero 4chan apps on the app store, but a dozen reddit apps (which is ironic given recent news over there). There are dozens of these odd edge cases based on Apple's whimsy that just means there are zero IOS options for what Android has dozens of, even before getting into "obviously" banned content like adult apps and piracy. So while a few (like, literally 5-10) blockbuster game companies may take the PC launcher route if this wins, there are several smaller time apps that can benefit form this if the app store wasn't the only source of downloading here.
    - manigandham 5y ago
      Being able to have Microsoft XCloud (and other cloud gaming) as a native app instead of forced to only have the Apple games/arcade. This is one example of a completely legitimate scenario in a very popular entertainment category and yet it's blocked because of Apple's arbitrary rules of what you can do on your own device.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

It still has to run on the IPhone and ask for location, ad ID, etc. from iOS. Where the app comes from doesn't change that it must make the same system calls as everything else.

nodamage 5y ago
Except if they weren't subject to App Store rules they would likely bypass the advertising ID and do their own fingerprinting instead.
- manigandham 5y ago
  You're logged into the app. They don't need to fingerprint anything.
  - nodamage 5y ago
    Maybe in the Facebook app, but not necessarily in the Facebook SDK which is integrated by other apps for ads/auth/analytics.
    - manigandham 5y ago
      SDK abilities don’t depend on the storefront, that’s up to the OS. Apple store is just informational. Either way users should be able to choose what they install and from where.
      - nodamage 5y ago
        All apps on iOS need to pass App Store review, which means all apps that integrate third-party SDKs need to ensure those SDKs don't violate App Store policies, including policies on fingerprinting. Apple has already started to deny approval of apps using third-party SDKs that violate user tracking policies on iOS 14.
        5y ago

johnnyanmac 5y ago

What does it do on Google's app store? If they are still playing by google's rules, why would they take themselves off Apple's store? is Apple's data more valuable than Google's? These kinds of theoreticals have likely already been addressed with Apple's biggest competitor. Androids aren't known to be virus ridden privacy compromising devices. At least, no more than any device with communication antennas installed.

nodamage 5y ago
> Androids aren't known to be virus ridden privacy compromising devices. I mean, statistically, they kind of are. From Nokia's Threat Intelligence Report for 2020 (https://www.nokia.com/networks/portfolio/cyber-security/threat-intelligence-report-2020/ https://www.nokia.com/networks/portfolio/cyber-security/thre...): Figure 3 provides a breakdown of infections by device type in 2020. Among smartphones, Android devices are the most commonly targeted by malware. Android devices were responsible for 26.64% of all infections, Windows/PCs for 38.92%, IoT devices for 32.72% and only 1.72% for iPhones.
- johnnyanmac 5y ago
  statistically, maybe. But it's more about mindshare in cases like these. IoT devices based on your report is even more prone to compromises, but there's not much fear for a person's fridge being compromised. And as always, these cases come down to how many people really concern themselves with that risk. Windows has had that reputation, but it hasn't helped Apple that much in terms of Mac adoption, let alone Linux.
  - nodamage 5y ago
    I'm not sure why mindshare is relevant? You might not worry much about your fridge being compromised, but these days smartphones contain a lot of personal data which could be very problematic if compromised. There is even Android malware out there that steals 2FA codes.
    - 5y ago