10 ms·

> Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions. That's not a theory, that's just restating the ques

by creata 5y ago

> Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions. That's not a theory, that's just restating the question! Why is the distribution the way it is, and should we make efforts to change it?

stickfigure 5y ago
Maybe, but I still think there's an important point in there. We (society) do a lot of handwringing about CEO and engineering jobs, but these aren't even remotely the most gender-asymmetric careers out there. According to [1], "Locomotive engineers and operators" are 92.3 percent male. I'm willing to bet that if you can "fix" that problem - or even conclusively identify the cause - gender imbalance issues in other fields will be less contentious. [1] https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm
- hanselot 5y ago
  I have never in my entire life met a female plumber, yet somehow I doubt that's caused by the inherent patriarchal bias in the ****-fixing industry. Note: I have never even met a women that aspires to trying to be one.
- someguydave 5y ago
  “fixing” that “problem” would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest. How do you propose to force them to change their desires?
  - edenhyacinth 5y ago
    That argument assumes women aren't interested in those roles, and that their disinterest is the only or primary thing that causes an imbalance. You have to know that isn't true, which makes this a great example of why people are frustrated about discussing anything 'political' in the workplace.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Do you have some data to support your assumption that they do want to be in those roles in higher numbers that they are already?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - alchemst 5y ago
      Why on earth would you say "you have to know this isn't true"? If you see similar patterns across many different cultures, including ones considered to be more gender-egalitarian, I would have honestly thought the conclusion would be, in fact, varying interests. Or do you think there are no biological differences (on average) between men and women, in which case, I can provide you with large, multi-national studies that come to a different conclusion. I can see how there could be debate about how much the difference is, and what the causes of it are, but "you have to know that isn't true" seems like saying "Come on, everyone knows the world is flat, stop arguing in bad faith".
    - someguydave 5y ago
      >You have to know that isn't true I know it is true, by looking at empirical data. Can you cite data that support your conclusion?
  - creata 5y ago
    > would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest This is a blatant non sequitur. Counterexample: It's hard in many places to be a male schoolteacher, because men are seen by parents and other staff as potential predators, to the point where some people won't even trust a man to change their kid's diapers. Men have said that this is a big reason they don't want to become schoolteachers, so if we help change public opinion on this front, then we've ostensibly lessened a gender imbalance without "forcing" any men to "change their desires."
- rovolo 5y ago
  There are: 55k "Locomotive engineers and operators" (90% male) 1.7m "Chief executives" (70% male) 1.9m "Software developers" (80% male) 3.2m "Architecture and engineering occupations" (85% male) Maybe there is a lot of handwringing within the locomotive industry, but it really doesn't seem important enough for the rest of us to care about.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Not that agree or disagree, but... Using that logic, why should we care at all. Less than 7 million out of about 170 million in the workforce. Shouldn't we be looking a other, more common jobs? (On a side note I'm surprised software devs are only 1.9 million)
    - rovolo 5y ago
      There are two orders of magnitude difference between the number locomotive operators and the CEO & engineering jobs: 55k/7m = 0.8% 7m/170m = 4% There's a legit difference between arguing about a $40k line item on a $1m house sale and a $400 line item.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        What's your point? Either way we're adding up largely arbitrary line items composing a very small minority. It makes more sense to look the areas that would impact the most people. To use your analogy, who cares if the seller takes care of that $40k line item of the other ones that need work add up to $250k? Great, I have a solid roof but what about my crumbling foundation...
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    Sure. And there are fewer full-blown autistic people than there are people "on the spectrum". But it's a lot easier to study autism by looking at severe cases than it is to try to figure out what's biologically different about people who are "a little aspy". 92% of veterinarians are female 98.8% (!) of preschool and kindergarten teachers are female If you want to understand gender imbalance in employment, these are the obvious places to start.
ttt0 5y ago
Because men and women are physiologically different and are just not attracted to the same things. For example most women don't like hunting, while men do, most likely due to evolutionary reasons. If it's just about statistics not looking as nice and even as we'd like then no, in my opinion we shouldn't make any efforts to change it.

by creata 5y ago

stickfigure 5y ago

Maybe, but I still think there's an important point in there. We (society) do a lot of handwringing about CEO and engineering jobs, but these aren't even remotely the most gender-asymmetric careers out there. According to [1], "Locomotive engineers and operators" are 92.3 percent male. I'm willing to bet that if you can "fix" that problem - or even conclusively identify the cause - gender imbalance issues in other fields will be less contentious. [1] https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

hanselot 5y ago
I have never in my entire life met a female plumber, yet somehow I doubt that's caused by the inherent patriarchal bias in the ****-fixing industry. Note: I have never even met a women that aspires to trying to be one.
someguydave 5y ago
“fixing” that “problem” would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest. How do you propose to force them to change their desires?
- edenhyacinth 5y ago
  That argument assumes women aren't interested in those roles, and that their disinterest is the only or primary thing that causes an imbalance. You have to know that isn't true, which makes this a great example of why people are frustrated about discussing anything 'political' in the workplace.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Do you have some data to support your assumption that they do want to be in those roles in higher numbers that they are already?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - alchemst 5y ago
    Why on earth would you say "you have to know this isn't true"? If you see similar patterns across many different cultures, including ones considered to be more gender-egalitarian, I would have honestly thought the conclusion would be, in fact, varying interests. Or do you think there are no biological differences (on average) between men and women, in which case, I can provide you with large, multi-national studies that come to a different conclusion. I can see how there could be debate about how much the difference is, and what the causes of it are, but "you have to know that isn't true" seems like saying "Come on, everyone knows the world is flat, stop arguing in bad faith".
  - someguydave 5y ago
    >You have to know that isn't true I know it is true, by looking at empirical data. Can you cite data that support your conclusion?
- creata 5y ago
  > would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest This is a blatant non sequitur. Counterexample: It's hard in many places to be a male schoolteacher, because men are seen by parents and other staff as potential predators, to the point where some people won't even trust a man to change their kid's diapers. Men have said that this is a big reason they don't want to become schoolteachers, so if we help change public opinion on this front, then we've ostensibly lessened a gender imbalance without "forcing" any men to "change their desires."
rovolo 5y ago
There are: 55k "Locomotive engineers and operators" (90% male) 1.7m "Chief executives" (70% male) 1.9m "Software developers" (80% male) 3.2m "Architecture and engineering occupations" (85% male) Maybe there is a lot of handwringing within the locomotive industry, but it really doesn't seem important enough for the rest of us to care about.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Not that agree or disagree, but... Using that logic, why should we care at all. Less than 7 million out of about 170 million in the workforce. Shouldn't we be looking a other, more common jobs? (On a side note I'm surprised software devs are only 1.9 million)
  - rovolo 5y ago
    There are two orders of magnitude difference between the number locomotive operators and the CEO & engineering jobs: 55k/7m = 0.8% 7m/170m = 4% There's a legit difference between arguing about a $40k line item on a $1m house sale and a $400 line item.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      What's your point? Either way we're adding up largely arbitrary line items composing a very small minority. It makes more sense to look the areas that would impact the most people. To use your analogy, who cares if the seller takes care of that $40k line item of the other ones that need work add up to $250k? Great, I have a solid roof but what about my crumbling foundation...
- stickfigure 5y ago
  Sure. And there are fewer full-blown autistic people than there are people "on the spectrum". But it's a lot easier to study autism by looking at severe cases than it is to try to figure out what's biologically different about people who are "a little aspy". 92% of veterinarians are female 98.8% (!) of preschool and kindergarten teachers are female If you want to understand gender imbalance in employment, these are the obvious places to start.

ttt0 5y ago

Because men and women are physiologically different and are just not attracted to the same things. For example most women don't like hunting, while men do, most likely due to evolutionary reasons. If it's just about statistics not looking as nice and even as we'd like then no, in my opinion we shouldn't make any efforts to change it.