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Applying those labels to people who are objectively and overtly acting that way is not the problem. The problem is that way too often people are assuming it's t

Applying those labels to people who are objectively and overtly acting that way is not the problem. The problem is that way too often people are assuming it's there. It's a presumption of intent, "racism is one possible explanation for your viewpoint, therefore I somehow /just know/ that you are a racist person". Example: every recent white-cop-shot-a-black-person incident in the U.S. Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that), you can't even /talk/ about parts of the problem without being labeled a racist. Heck, even /raising the question/ of whether or not the incident was motivated by racism will often get you labeled as racist. Want to discuss the practical benefits of being cooperative during a police encounter? You're racist!

andrepd 5y ago
> Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation Well, is there?? Everybody I seem to interact with doesn't think so. Where are all those bogeymen chanting racism right away? Surely you can quote some sort of survey to back up your perception, right?
- dbrueck 5y ago
  For starters, go search Twitter for 'George Floyd' - it's hard to find threads that /don't/ make it about racism to some degree or another. But even a cursory search on other sides yields oodles of results; here's some from just the first page or two of hits: "Racism killed George Floyd" - https://www.americantheatre.org/2021/04/15/day-after-day-racism-killed-george-floyd/ https://www.americantheatre.org/2021/04/15/day-after-day-rac... "George Floyd murder exposes rotten racism in the US" - https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1190140.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1190140.shtml https://coloradohealth.org/insights/good-health/racism-public-health-issue-what-george-floyds-death-can-teach-funders https://coloradohealth.org/insights/good-health/racism-publi... https://www.amestrib.com/story/opinion/2021/04/01/opinion-george-floyds-death-speaks-against-all-forms-racism/4833742001/ https://www.amestrib.com/story/opinion/2021/04/01/opinion-ge... There's pages and pages of this stuff. And beyond that there's layers of not-explicit-but-not-subtle positioning of incidents - if a cop (of any color) shoots a white person, it's a police shooting and usually doesn't go much further than the local news. If a cop (of any color) shoots a black person, it's national news and the victim's race is mentioned constantly. If racism is not being implied, what is the relevance of his race?
  - andrepd 5y ago
    > For starters, go search Twitter for 'George Floyd' Twitter is not a representative slice of the population or its feelings, so that's why your premise is right out of the bat flawed.
    - Negitivefrags 5y ago
      You specifically asked “where are all the boogeymen?” and the answer was “On Twitter” but that wasn’t good enough for you?
    - dbrueck 5y ago
      You asked for examples and so I gave them to you, and then you dismissed the first because you didn't like it and then completely ignored the other two. I'm discussing this in good faith and am assuming you are too. Please update your reply or erase it. Thanks!
zxzax 5y ago
>Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that) It's hard to say what all the issues of individual motivation are in every case, but there is evidence that racism plays a factor. [0] It may not be because of overt racism, the officers involved don't have to attend klan rallies for other racially biased policies like redlining to have a broad effect on policing. >Want to discuss the practical benefits of being cooperative during a police encounter? The reason you're getting dismissed here is because this is missing the point. People in a state of confusion or crisis sometimes don't have the option of being cooperative with the police. That shouldn't be cause to get you shot and killed by a police officer inside your own house with no due process, which currently you have an increased risk of that happening to you if you're of a certain race. [0] https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793
- tstrimple 5y ago
  Cooperation is no guarantee that you won't be extra-judiciously murdered without consequences either. We have plenty of examples like Philando Castile to put the myth of "just cooperate" to rest.
  - dbrueck 5y ago
    So? There is no guarantee of anything, for anyone. But in terms of risk management, you can take some extremely simple steps to reduce the risk to approximately zero. Here's "the talk" that all parents can have with their kids: 1) Do your best to avoid breaking the law or associating with people that do. 2) If you have a police encounter, cooperate. Does that /guarantee/ anything? Of course not. But follow those two simple rules and the odds of getting killed by police are /effectively/ zero. Yes, there's still a chance, but there's always a chance (for everyone, of all colors). But follow those two simple rules and you'll probably win the lottery or get hit by lightning first.
    - omniglottal 5y ago
      Step #2 is precisely the opposite of the advice that keeps innocent victims of the police out of jail. Cooperate, sure, but the actual advice that lawyers provide is not to talk, and end the interaction as firmly and respectfully as possible. As a reminder, cops are encouraged and professionally trained to manipulate and deceive, and they will use anything you say against you. Your advice might work more effectively for someone privileged enough to be able to afford bail and a lawyer.
tstrimple 5y ago
I think you're missing the point w.r.t. BLM and racist policing. The assumption isn't racism. The statistical evidence says racism. And the argument was never that all of these white cops are independently racist in their heart of hearts. It's that they participate in and support a system with explicitly racist outcomes. There is simply no question that the criminal justice system in the US has racist outcomes. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0963721418763931 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09637214187639...
- jimmygrapes 5y ago
  Are there not many potential explanations other than a nebulous concept of "racism" for these statistics?
  - tstrimple 5y ago
    Are there many potential explanations as to why our justice system has racist outcomes? Absolutely. Does that change whether the outcomes are racist or not? Absolutely not. There seems to be a lot of confusion over racism where one group seems to think racism only exists when it involves white hoods and hurling racial epitaphs and the other group is more concerned about large societal trends and documented evidence of disparities in outcomes based on race. Machine learning algorithms are a perfect example. If you build an ML algorithm for approving home loans using historical data, the outcomes of that algorithm will likely have a strong racial bias due to the history of housing segregation. If a company were to use that algorithm, they would be participating in systemic racism even if not a single person in that company was racist. It's racist because the outcomes are, not because of individual racists within the system trying to explicitly hurt black folk.
    - dbrueck 5y ago
      The term "racist outcomes" is an example of the problem we're talking about. A racial disparity is not racist. Correlation is not the same thing as causation. Racism could very much be one of the factors, but painting the entire disparity as racism pretty much guarantees we will make no progress on zeroing in on, and ultimately eliminating, the actual racism. Conflating racial disparities with racism is really harmful and counterproductive.
Krisando 5y ago
> every recent white-cop-shot-a-black-person incident in the U.S. Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that), you can't even /talk/ about parts of the problem without being labeled a racist. What I thought was even more interesting was that racism was never a charge raised in the George Floyd case yet it was one parroted by many individuals as completely 'obvious' guilt in. The discussion that happens outside of these circles seems to be entirely different approach too and I would dare not even mention facts like this among work colleagues, even though he is plainly guilty of other charges as it does not fit the narrative they hold.
sollewitt 5y ago
Data on lifetime likelihood of death by cop in the US by ethnicity. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 It's very evident the US has strong implicit biases just from the Justice system. We could also look at incarceration rates, or sentencing disparities by ethnicity. At some point saying "hey, we can't just _assume_ this is racist" _appears_ less like good faith debate and more like bad faith denialism.
- dbrueck 5y ago
  I'm all for looking at incarceration rates and sentencing disparities, etc. - if there are actual imbalances after controlling for relevant factors, then it makes sense to root them out and fix them. That said, studies like the one you're citing appear to be flawed because they fail to account for rates of crime (especially violent crime) as well as socioeconomic factors. Correlation is not causation and all that. (see e.g. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-rac...)
- belorn 5y ago
  Statistics do not prove intent, unless you want us to use the same data to prove that the Justice system is an order of magnitude more sexist than racist because 2000% more men are killed then women. The numbers for incarceration rates and sentencing disparities are similar damning. If we go by the data in the study, the likelihood of death by cop in the US is determined by age first, gender second, race third. If we look at other studies we can add social economical factors, geographic location, geopolitical and cultural factors, all which has correlation impact with age, gender and race.
  - sollewitt 5y ago
    Agreed, I think one of the ways the two camps talk past each other is using "racist" to refer to both the motive of individual actors and the systemic and cultural biases. Also yes, the judicial system is also sexist - police don't see women as being threats demanding lethal force, juries are more willing to see women as victims including of their circumstances. That's not the only reason for discrepancies, sociobiology looks into links between biological factors and criminality too, but the cultural issues are enough that defendants are coached to behave differently based on gender. I see your final point, but my hunch is if you dig in to the correlation between age, gender and race with economics and geography, the eigenvalues will be ordered the other way (race, gender, age) - and if so I think that would indicate the Justice system is only a reflection of the larger society, rather than negate the idea of a racist justice system?
BlueTemplar 5y ago
The worst part is how this kind of "anti-racism" is itself promoting racism by focusing way too much on skin color.

andrepd 5y ago

> Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation Well, is there?? Everybody I seem to interact with doesn't think so. Where are all those bogeymen chanting racism right away? Surely you can quote some sort of survey to back up your perception, right?

dbrueck 5y ago
For starters, go search Twitter for 'George Floyd' - it's hard to find threads that /don't/ make it about racism to some degree or another. But even a cursory search on other sides yields oodles of results; here's some from just the first page or two of hits: "Racism killed George Floyd" - https://www.americantheatre.org/2021/04/15/day-after-day-racism-killed-george-floyd/ https://www.americantheatre.org/2021/04/15/day-after-day-rac... "George Floyd murder exposes rotten racism in the US" - https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1190140.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1190140.shtml https://coloradohealth.org/insights/good-health/racism-public-health-issue-what-george-floyds-death-can-teach-funders https://coloradohealth.org/insights/good-health/racism-publi... https://www.amestrib.com/story/opinion/2021/04/01/opinion-george-floyds-death-speaks-against-all-forms-racism/4833742001/ https://www.amestrib.com/story/opinion/2021/04/01/opinion-ge... There's pages and pages of this stuff. And beyond that there's layers of not-explicit-but-not-subtle positioning of incidents - if a cop (of any color) shoots a white person, it's a police shooting and usually doesn't go much further than the local news. If a cop (of any color) shoots a black person, it's national news and the victim's race is mentioned constantly. If racism is not being implied, what is the relevance of his race?
- andrepd 5y ago
  > For starters, go search Twitter for 'George Floyd' Twitter is not a representative slice of the population or its feelings, so that's why your premise is right out of the bat flawed.
  - Negitivefrags 5y ago
    You specifically asked “where are all the boogeymen?” and the answer was “On Twitter” but that wasn’t good enough for you?
  - dbrueck 5y ago
    You asked for examples and so I gave them to you, and then you dismissed the first because you didn't like it and then completely ignored the other two. I'm discussing this in good faith and am assuming you are too. Please update your reply or erase it. Thanks!

zxzax 5y ago

>Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that) It's hard to say what all the issues of individual motivation are in every case, but there is evidence that racism plays a factor. [0] It may not be because of overt racism, the officers involved don't have to attend klan rallies for other racially biased policies like redlining to have a broad effect on policing. >Want to discuss the practical benefits of being cooperative during a police encounter? The reason you're getting dismissed here is because this is missing the point. People in a state of confusion or crisis sometimes don't have the option of being cooperative with the police. That shouldn't be cause to get you shot and killed by a police officer inside your own house with no due process, which currently you have an increased risk of that happening to you if you're of a certain race. [0] https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

tstrimple 5y ago
Cooperation is no guarantee that you won't be extra-judiciously murdered without consequences either. We have plenty of examples like Philando Castile to put the myth of "just cooperate" to rest.
- dbrueck 5y ago
  So? There is no guarantee of anything, for anyone. But in terms of risk management, you can take some extremely simple steps to reduce the risk to approximately zero. Here's "the talk" that all parents can have with their kids: 1) Do your best to avoid breaking the law or associating with people that do. 2) If you have a police encounter, cooperate. Does that /guarantee/ anything? Of course not. But follow those two simple rules and the odds of getting killed by police are /effectively/ zero. Yes, there's still a chance, but there's always a chance (for everyone, of all colors). But follow those two simple rules and you'll probably win the lottery or get hit by lightning first.
  - omniglottal 5y ago
    Step #2 is precisely the opposite of the advice that keeps innocent victims of the police out of jail. Cooperate, sure, but the actual advice that lawyers provide is not to talk, and end the interaction as firmly and respectfully as possible. As a reminder, cops are encouraged and professionally trained to manipulate and deceive, and they will use anything you say against you. Your advice might work more effectively for someone privileged enough to be able to afford bail and a lawyer.

tstrimple 5y ago

I think you're missing the point w.r.t. BLM and racist policing. The assumption isn't racism. The statistical evidence says racism. And the argument was never that all of these white cops are independently racist in their heart of hearts. It's that they participate in and support a system with explicitly racist outcomes. There is simply no question that the criminal justice system in the US has racist outcomes. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0963721418763931 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09637214187639...

jimmygrapes 5y ago
Are there not many potential explanations other than a nebulous concept of "racism" for these statistics?
- tstrimple 5y ago
  Are there many potential explanations as to why our justice system has racist outcomes? Absolutely. Does that change whether the outcomes are racist or not? Absolutely not. There seems to be a lot of confusion over racism where one group seems to think racism only exists when it involves white hoods and hurling racial epitaphs and the other group is more concerned about large societal trends and documented evidence of disparities in outcomes based on race. Machine learning algorithms are a perfect example. If you build an ML algorithm for approving home loans using historical data, the outcomes of that algorithm will likely have a strong racial bias due to the history of housing segregation. If a company were to use that algorithm, they would be participating in systemic racism even if not a single person in that company was racist. It's racist because the outcomes are, not because of individual racists within the system trying to explicitly hurt black folk.
  - dbrueck 5y ago
    The term "racist outcomes" is an example of the problem we're talking about. A racial disparity is not racist. Correlation is not the same thing as causation. Racism could very much be one of the factors, but painting the entire disparity as racism pretty much guarantees we will make no progress on zeroing in on, and ultimately eliminating, the actual racism. Conflating racial disparities with racism is really harmful and counterproductive.

Krisando 5y ago

> every recent white-cop-shot-a-black-person incident in the U.S. Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that), you can't even /talk/ about parts of the problem without being labeled a racist. What I thought was even more interesting was that racism was never a charge raised in the George Floyd case yet it was one parroted by many individuals as completely 'obvious' guilt in. The discussion that happens outside of these circles seems to be entirely different approach too and I would dare not even mention facts like this among work colleagues, even though he is plainly guilty of other charges as it does not fit the narrative they hold.

sollewitt 5y ago

Data on lifetime likelihood of death by cop in the US by ethnicity. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 It's very evident the US has strong implicit biases just from the Justice system. We could also look at incarceration rates, or sentencing disparities by ethnicity. At some point saying "hey, we can't just _assume_ this is racist" _appears_ less like good faith debate and more like bad faith denialism.

dbrueck 5y ago
I'm all for looking at incarceration rates and sentencing disparities, etc. - if there are actual imbalances after controlling for relevant factors, then it makes sense to root them out and fix them. That said, studies like the one you're citing appear to be flawed because they fail to account for rates of crime (especially violent crime) as well as socioeconomic factors. Correlation is not causation and all that. (see e.g. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-rac...)
belorn 5y ago
Statistics do not prove intent, unless you want us to use the same data to prove that the Justice system is an order of magnitude more sexist than racist because 2000% more men are killed then women. The numbers for incarceration rates and sentencing disparities are similar damning. If we go by the data in the study, the likelihood of death by cop in the US is determined by age first, gender second, race third. If we look at other studies we can add social economical factors, geographic location, geopolitical and cultural factors, all which has correlation impact with age, gender and race.
- sollewitt 5y ago
  Agreed, I think one of the ways the two camps talk past each other is using "racist" to refer to both the motive of individual actors and the systemic and cultural biases. Also yes, the judicial system is also sexist - police don't see women as being threats demanding lethal force, juries are more willing to see women as victims including of their circumstances. That's not the only reason for discrepancies, sociobiology looks into links between biological factors and criminality too, but the cultural issues are enough that defendants are coached to behave differently based on gender. I see your final point, but my hunch is if you dig in to the correlation between age, gender and race with economics and geography, the eigenvalues will be ordered the other way (race, gender, age) - and if so I think that would indicate the Justice system is only a reflection of the larger society, rather than negate the idea of a racist justice system?

BlueTemplar 5y ago

The worst part is how this kind of "anti-racism" is itself promoting racism by focusing way too much on skin color.