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The result is that world becomes more and more boring. No interesting discussion can take place. Environment becomes more toxic and it's mainly due to radicals

The result is that world becomes more and more boring. No interesting discussion can take place. Environment becomes more toxic and it's mainly due to radicals who perceive everything as offensive and everybody who disagrees as "nazi" or "racist" or "-phobic".

YinglingLight 5y ago
"No interesting discussion can take place" quickly leads to "No meaningful discussion can take place".
tstrimple 5y ago
I'm not sure why everyone keeps scoffing at the idea of calling some of these folks Nazis or racists. It's not hyperbole or an exaggeration. We did have a rally with a bunch of white nationalists exercising their "free speech" to chant "The Jews will not replace us" and they ended up murdering someone there. We had a National Security Advisor to the President of the United States promoting replacement theory. There are countless other examples major and minor over the last 12 years. Just how much racism and bigotry has to be clearly and consistently demonstrated for the labels to stick?
- fidesomnes 5y ago
  > I'm not sure why everyone keeps scoffing at the idea of calling some of these folks Nazis or racists. Except you call everyone Nazis or racists including Jews, blacks, and others (J. K. Rowling for a recent example) who would be considered disqualified from white ethno-nationalist movements.
  - HaggardFinical 5y ago
    Can you point to an example of anyone calling Just Kidding Rowling a nazi or a racist?
    - fidesomnes 5y ago
      There are thousands of examples on twitter.
- bmmayer1 5y ago
  I'll bite. It's because the labels themselves have become diluted to have any real meaning. Yes, there are white nationalists who show up to rallies waving Nazi flags. But it's also totally normal to hear people refer to "white supremacy" with regard to SATs[1]. So there really is a diminishing return on calling things racist, and that's probably what most people are "scoffing" at. [1]https://www.tcpress.com/blog/dismantling-white-supremacy-includes-racist-tests-sat-act/ https://www.tcpress.com/blog/dismantling-white-supremacy-inc...
  - zxzax 5y ago
    I think you're just illustrating the point. It's okay to address issues with racial bias in SAT questions. Those things can still be racist (maybe not even intentionally so) and worth addressing despite there being worse racism somewhere else. We don't have to ignore that, it's not getting diluted because there are neo nazis that exist somewhere else.
    - bmmayer1 5y ago
      Using loaded terms like "racism" or "white supremacy" to describe major incidents as well as minor "not even intentionally so" infractions is pretty much the definition of dilution.
      - klyrs 5y ago
        This conversation shows up on pretty much every HN story that ends up discussing racism. This fear of "dilution" is a textbook "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
- dbrueck 5y ago
  Applying those labels to people who are objectively and overtly acting that way is not the problem. The problem is that way too often people are assuming it's there. It's a presumption of intent, "racism is one possible explanation for your viewpoint, therefore I somehow /just know/ that you are a racist person". Example: every recent white-cop-shot-a-black-person incident in the U.S. Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that), you can't even /talk/ about parts of the problem without being labeled a racist. Heck, even /raising the question/ of whether or not the incident was motivated by racism will often get you labeled as racist. Want to discuss the practical benefits of being cooperative during a police encounter? You're racist!
  - andrepd 5y ago
    > Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation Well, is there?? Everybody I seem to interact with doesn't think so. Where are all those bogeymen chanting racism right away? Surely you can quote some sort of survey to back up your perception, right?
    - dbrueck 5y ago
      For starters, go search Twitter for 'George Floyd' - it's hard to find threads that /don't/ make it about racism to some degree or another. But even a cursory search on other sides yields oodles of results; here's some from just the first page or two of hits: "Racism killed George Floyd" - https://www.americantheatre.org/2021/04/15/day-after-day-racism-killed-george-floyd/ https://www.americantheatre.org/2021/04/15/day-after-day-rac... "George Floyd murder exposes rotten racism in the US" - https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1190140.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1190140.shtml https://coloradohealth.org/insights/good-health/racism-public-health-issue-what-george-floyds-death-can-teach-funders https://coloradohealth.org/insights/good-health/racism-publi... https://www.amestrib.com/story/opinion/2021/04/01/opinion-george-floyds-death-speaks-against-all-forms-racism/4833742001/ https://www.amestrib.com/story/opinion/2021/04/01/opinion-ge... There's pages and pages of this stuff. And beyond that there's layers of not-explicit-but-not-subtle positioning of incidents - if a cop (of any color) shoots a white person, it's a police shooting and usually doesn't go much further than the local news. If a cop (of any color) shoots a black person, it's national news and the victim's race is mentioned constantly. If racism is not being implied, what is the relevance of his race?
- goodpoint 5y ago
  You are pointing out that neonazi groups exists and did rallies. Those groups often call for "free speech" and complain about being silenced. Yet, *your* comment is being downvoted away and appears light gray to me. This is really concerning.
  - vixen99 5y ago
    The commenter clearly has an agenda to further. No dispassionate observer whatever their political leaning really believes the 'silencing' only exists on the Right. Not a hint of that in the comment. That's concerning.

YinglingLight 5y ago

"No interesting discussion can take place" quickly leads to "No meaningful discussion can take place".

tstrimple 5y ago

I'm not sure why everyone keeps scoffing at the idea of calling some of these folks Nazis or racists. It's not hyperbole or an exaggeration. We did have a rally with a bunch of white nationalists exercising their "free speech" to chant "The Jews will not replace us" and they ended up murdering someone there. We had a National Security Advisor to the President of the United States promoting replacement theory. There are countless other examples major and minor over the last 12 years. Just how much racism and bigotry has to be clearly and consistently demonstrated for the labels to stick?

fidesomnes 5y ago
> I'm not sure why everyone keeps scoffing at the idea of calling some of these folks Nazis or racists. Except you call everyone Nazis or racists including Jews, blacks, and others (J. K. Rowling for a recent example) who would be considered disqualified from white ethno-nationalist movements.
- HaggardFinical 5y ago
  Can you point to an example of anyone calling Just Kidding Rowling a nazi or a racist?
  - fidesomnes 5y ago
    There are thousands of examples on twitter.
bmmayer1 5y ago
I'll bite. It's because the labels themselves have become diluted to have any real meaning. Yes, there are white nationalists who show up to rallies waving Nazi flags. But it's also totally normal to hear people refer to "white supremacy" with regard to SATs[1]. So there really is a diminishing return on calling things racist, and that's probably what most people are "scoffing" at. [1]https://www.tcpress.com/blog/dismantling-white-supremacy-includes-racist-tests-sat-act/ https://www.tcpress.com/blog/dismantling-white-supremacy-inc...
- zxzax 5y ago
  I think you're just illustrating the point. It's okay to address issues with racial bias in SAT questions. Those things can still be racist (maybe not even intentionally so) and worth addressing despite there being worse racism somewhere else. We don't have to ignore that, it's not getting diluted because there are neo nazis that exist somewhere else.
  - bmmayer1 5y ago
    Using loaded terms like "racism" or "white supremacy" to describe major incidents as well as minor "not even intentionally so" infractions is pretty much the definition of dilution.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      This conversation shows up on pretty much every HN story that ends up discussing racism. This fear of "dilution" is a textbook "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
dbrueck 5y ago
Applying those labels to people who are objectively and overtly acting that way is not the problem. The problem is that way too often people are assuming it's there. It's a presumption of intent, "racism is one possible explanation for your viewpoint, therefore I somehow /just know/ that you are a racist person". Example: every recent white-cop-shot-a-black-person incident in the U.S. Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that), you can't even /talk/ about parts of the problem without being labeled a racist. Heck, even /raising the question/ of whether or not the incident was motivated by racism will often get you labeled as racist. Want to discuss the practical benefits of being cooperative during a police encounter? You're racist!
- andrepd 5y ago
  > Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation Well, is there?? Everybody I seem to interact with doesn't think so. Where are all those bogeymen chanting racism right away? Surely you can quote some sort of survey to back up your perception, right?
  - dbrueck 5y ago
    For starters, go search Twitter for 'George Floyd' - it's hard to find threads that /don't/ make it about racism to some degree or another. But even a cursory search on other sides yields oodles of results; here's some from just the first page or two of hits: "Racism killed George Floyd" - https://www.americantheatre.org/2021/04/15/day-after-day-racism-killed-george-floyd/ https://www.americantheatre.org/2021/04/15/day-after-day-rac... "George Floyd murder exposes rotten racism in the US" - https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1190140.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1190140.shtml https://coloradohealth.org/insights/good-health/racism-public-health-issue-what-george-floyds-death-can-teach-funders https://coloradohealth.org/insights/good-health/racism-publi... https://www.amestrib.com/story/opinion/2021/04/01/opinion-george-floyds-death-speaks-against-all-forms-racism/4833742001/ https://www.amestrib.com/story/opinion/2021/04/01/opinion-ge... There's pages and pages of this stuff. And beyond that there's layers of not-explicit-but-not-subtle positioning of incidents - if a cop (of any color) shoots a white person, it's a police shooting and usually doesn't go much further than the local news. If a cop (of any color) shoots a black person, it's national news and the victim's race is mentioned constantly. If racism is not being implied, what is the relevance of his race?
goodpoint 5y ago
You are pointing out that neonazi groups exists and did rallies. Those groups often call for "free speech" and complain about being silenced. Yet, *your* comment is being downvoted away and appears light gray to me. This is really concerning.
- vixen99 5y ago
  The commenter clearly has an agenda to further. No dispassionate observer whatever their political leaning really believes the 'silencing' only exists on the Right. Not a hint of that in the comment. That's concerning.