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>Expecting a city skyline to never change is ridiculous "In Athens, buildings are not allowed to surpass 12 floors so as not to block the view toward the Parth

>Expecting a city skyline to never change is ridiculous "In Athens, buildings are not allowed to surpass 12 floors so as not to block the view toward the Parthenon." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_Athens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_A... I'd say this isn't typical of most of the world, but it's not unprecedented.

wolverine876 5y ago
It also constrains supply of real estate, driving up the value for property owners.
- tarsinge 5y ago
  12 floors is huge. Nearly every building in Paris is 6 floors and it is already at near the maximum density humanly acceptable in my opinion. There will never be enough supply in some place, especially with speculation and foreign investors. The situation in NYC and these cities is nothing like SF.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    The average square footage of a Parisian studio would make NY’s tenements look downright palatial. The average NYC studio is 50 m^2. The larger end for a Parisian studio is given to be 35 m^2.
    - PoignardAzur 5y ago
      On the other hand, there's nothing forcing you to live in intra-muros Paris. I live in Nanterre, 5min away from the RER station, and my rent is 1200€/month for a 2-bedrooms apartment (50 m²). I have a <1h commute for about anywhere in Paris, and <20min for La Défense. Point is, you can have affordable-ish rents in a business center without building humongous high-rises everywhere, as long as your public transport network can support it.
      - mattmanser 5y ago
        Yes there is, circumstances. There's nothing forcing you maybe, but plenty of people will be stuck there because of circumstances.
      - ryder9 5y ago
        the transport infrastructure in paris is really great and something american cities lack in droves which drives up the cost of living and commute times due to increasing traffic and low density sprawl
      - bobthepanda 5y ago
        I don't know that sprawling density taking up land that could be used for nature is somehow supposed to be better than tall buildings.
    - carpedimebagjoe 5y ago
      Hmm... I should turn my ATX apt into 4 "Parisian" studios then. Such underutilized space considering I have an almost vestigial "dining room" that has been used mostly as a dance floor and a gym area.
      - bobthepanda 5y ago
        In practice, most American jurisdictions will not let one legally subdivide a living area into chunks as small as a Parisian studio. NYC regulations on how small you can subdivide are probably as generous as they get. In the Parisian example, it is legal to have an apartment without an in-unit bathroom, and this is straight up illegal in virtually every American city. A list of requirements for NYC (not exhaustive): https://www.renthop.com/qa/nyc/what-makes-an-apartment-illegal https://www.renthop.com/qa/nyc/what-makes-an-apartment-illeg...
        carpedimebagjoe 5y ago
        /s woosh. LOL. ;-) It's called tenement housing, in any case. Split the living room in half and rent the large walk-in closet, now a 2 bedroom is magically a 5 bedroom like an airline employee crashpad. :) Some friends of mine were thinking about renting out an entire warehouse and constructing illegal residential tenement "apartments" in them.
        bobthepanda 5y ago
        All fun and games till 36 people die in a fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Ship_warehouse_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Ship_warehouse_fire
  - baud147258 5y ago
    though for Paris, I think it's mandated by the local law, no? Regarding Paris, at the current density, maybe it would be better to have higher building but with a smaller ground footprint (not sure if it's the right term), to leave space free for more parks?
  - BelenusMordred 5y ago
    > 12 floors is huge. I live 40 stories up, surrounded by a lot of green spaces because the city doesn't need to mow down natural habitats for population growth. 6 floors seems quaint and archaic, all it's going to cause is endless depressing urban sprawl. > There will never be enough supply in some place We can always build higher, construction techniques are only getting better. I don't see why 60 floor buildings can't be a norm in most supply constrained cities.
    - biztos 5y ago
      I’m also on 40 (out of 76) and while we’ll probably all die if there’s an earthquake, that’s true in a lot of NIMBYtowns too. I could see whole cities of mostly >50 stories, but then unblockable views start to get immensely valuable right? So as the city fills up and you discover which locations have more durable views, you need to start tearing down those skyscrapers to replace them with more luxurious ones. Not sure if that’s dystopian, but I do quite like the view from up here.
    - bobthepanda 5y ago
      The main constraint on taller buildings is elevators. The taller a building is, the more elevators it needs, and the more elevator shafts there are the lower the percentage of square footage available for other, paying uses. The sweet spot for residential in Hong Kong is about 30-40 stories.
    - tarsinge 5y ago
      > We can always build higher, construction techniques are only getting better. I don't see why 60 floor buildings can't be a norm in most supply constrained cities. Because there is no way we can make infrastructure follow in the short term. Public transports are already saturated here, we could remove cars, but there is still a limit in how many people can be on the ground in streets, parcs, shops...
    - bluefirebrand 5y ago
      I find appropriately planned urban sprawl a whole lot less depressing than living in a cube 40 stories up. Different strokes I guess.
  - carpedimebagjoe 5y ago
    12 floors is tiny if you're not used to it. There's only ~75 buildings in Paris >6 floors because of the 37m height limit. Cities either have to have faster transportation, build underground, build higher, or build out farther. Increasing costs by keeping transportation horrible or limiting supply for the rich squeezes money from the lowers and the middle classes. Very fast transport from nearby satellite communities would be the most ideal solution because then locality doesn't matter as much to most people.
gelert 5y ago
This is also a thing in London where certain views towards St Pauls Cathedral are protected.
- cm2187 5y ago
  London isn't exactly a model of urban planning. There is a massive shortage of housing. And you end up with all new developments concentrated in a handful of areas.
  - wayanon 5y ago
    I agree but if 100,000 homes became available tomorrow in London they’d sell in an instant. I don’t think any number will solve it - the problem is existing homes not being lived in and being used as income.
    - iso1210 5y ago
      How many homes in London are empty? Numbers I see are in the region of 25,000, out of 3.6 million, under 1%.
      - bmilleare 5y ago
        It would be more interesting to see those numbers in square footage and not straight counts. I would expect the majority of the 'empty' homes are the £10M+ ones in Knightsbridge, Chelsea, Kensington etc.
        iso1210 5y ago
        Offices and hotels far more empty square footage
    - barry-cotter 5y ago
      You could fit 59 Manhattans in the London Green Belt. Manhattan has 1.6 million residents. The problem is not building.
chrischen 5y ago
I guess they peaked in 447 BC.
searchableguy 5y ago
China has done the same recently. They are moving away from skyscrapers. Strict regulation for buildings taller than 250m. No approval for buildings taller than 500m. https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/arts-culture/article/3115225/chinese-provinces-fall-line-super-tall-buildings-ban-even https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/arts-culture/article/3115225/...
- Jabbles 5y ago
  That's not really the same thing as Athens at all. 250m is ~60 floors.
  - searchableguy 5y ago
    I was pointing to the trend of curbing down on skyscrappers instead of a direct comparison. 250m is the limit for strict regulation. Newer buildings tend to be around 100m.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  The article is paywalled for me. I would imagine that has more to do with curbing local officials’ habits of encouraging land speculation to plump up their budgets. The central government is trying to have its cake and eat it too when it comes to property that needs to rise in value to boost wealth but also not become totally unaffordable for first time buyers, and overheating the market doesn’t help with the latter.
maccard 5y ago
I live in Edinburgh, and we have "key views" (example of the centre ones here https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/download/13259/key-views---centre https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/download/13259/key-vi... - there's 5 or 6 pages but no link to them all) there's dozens of the views in the city, and no planning will be granted that materially changes the skyline in the views!
mysterydip 5y ago
The city of Charleston, SC has a set of height regulations: https://www.charleston-sc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/14414/Height-Regulations-Doc?bidId= https://www.charleston-sc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/14414/Heig...
deleted 5y ago
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wolverine876 5y ago

It also constrains supply of real estate, driving up the value for property owners.

tarsinge 5y ago
12 floors is huge. Nearly every building in Paris is 6 floors and it is already at near the maximum density humanly acceptable in my opinion. There will never be enough supply in some place, especially with speculation and foreign investors. The situation in NYC and these cities is nothing like SF.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  The average square footage of a Parisian studio would make NY’s tenements look downright palatial. The average NYC studio is 50 m^2. The larger end for a Parisian studio is given to be 35 m^2.
  - PoignardAzur 5y ago
    On the other hand, there's nothing forcing you to live in intra-muros Paris. I live in Nanterre, 5min away from the RER station, and my rent is 1200€/month for a 2-bedrooms apartment (50 m²). I have a <1h commute for about anywhere in Paris, and <20min for La Défense. Point is, you can have affordable-ish rents in a business center without building humongous high-rises everywhere, as long as your public transport network can support it.
    - mattmanser 5y ago
      Yes there is, circumstances. There's nothing forcing you maybe, but plenty of people will be stuck there because of circumstances.
    - ryder9 5y ago
      the transport infrastructure in paris is really great and something american cities lack in droves which drives up the cost of living and commute times due to increasing traffic and low density sprawl
    - bobthepanda 5y ago
      I don't know that sprawling density taking up land that could be used for nature is somehow supposed to be better than tall buildings.
  - carpedimebagjoe 5y ago
    Hmm... I should turn my ATX apt into 4 "Parisian" studios then. Such underutilized space considering I have an almost vestigial "dining room" that has been used mostly as a dance floor and a gym area.
    - bobthepanda 5y ago
      In practice, most American jurisdictions will not let one legally subdivide a living area into chunks as small as a Parisian studio. NYC regulations on how small you can subdivide are probably as generous as they get. In the Parisian example, it is legal to have an apartment without an in-unit bathroom, and this is straight up illegal in virtually every American city. A list of requirements for NYC (not exhaustive): https://www.renthop.com/qa/nyc/what-makes-an-apartment-illegal https://www.renthop.com/qa/nyc/what-makes-an-apartment-illeg...
      - carpedimebagjoe 5y ago
        /s woosh. LOL. ;-) It's called tenement housing, in any case. Split the living room in half and rent the large walk-in closet, now a 2 bedroom is magically a 5 bedroom like an airline employee crashpad. :) Some friends of mine were thinking about renting out an entire warehouse and constructing illegal residential tenement "apartments" in them.
        bobthepanda 5y ago
        All fun and games till 36 people die in a fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Ship_warehouse_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Ship_warehouse_fire
- baud147258 5y ago
  though for Paris, I think it's mandated by the local law, no? Regarding Paris, at the current density, maybe it would be better to have higher building but with a smaller ground footprint (not sure if it's the right term), to leave space free for more parks?
- BelenusMordred 5y ago
  > 12 floors is huge. I live 40 stories up, surrounded by a lot of green spaces because the city doesn't need to mow down natural habitats for population growth. 6 floors seems quaint and archaic, all it's going to cause is endless depressing urban sprawl. > There will never be enough supply in some place We can always build higher, construction techniques are only getting better. I don't see why 60 floor buildings can't be a norm in most supply constrained cities.
  - biztos 5y ago
    I’m also on 40 (out of 76) and while we’ll probably all die if there’s an earthquake, that’s true in a lot of NIMBYtowns too. I could see whole cities of mostly >50 stories, but then unblockable views start to get immensely valuable right? So as the city fills up and you discover which locations have more durable views, you need to start tearing down those skyscrapers to replace them with more luxurious ones. Not sure if that’s dystopian, but I do quite like the view from up here.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    The main constraint on taller buildings is elevators. The taller a building is, the more elevators it needs, and the more elevator shafts there are the lower the percentage of square footage available for other, paying uses. The sweet spot for residential in Hong Kong is about 30-40 stories.
  - tarsinge 5y ago
    > We can always build higher, construction techniques are only getting better. I don't see why 60 floor buildings can't be a norm in most supply constrained cities. Because there is no way we can make infrastructure follow in the short term. Public transports are already saturated here, we could remove cars, but there is still a limit in how many people can be on the ground in streets, parcs, shops...
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    I find appropriately planned urban sprawl a whole lot less depressing than living in a cube 40 stories up. Different strokes I guess.
- carpedimebagjoe 5y ago
  12 floors is tiny if you're not used to it. There's only ~75 buildings in Paris >6 floors because of the 37m height limit. Cities either have to have faster transportation, build underground, build higher, or build out farther. Increasing costs by keeping transportation horrible or limiting supply for the rich squeezes money from the lowers and the middle classes. Very fast transport from nearby satellite communities would be the most ideal solution because then locality doesn't matter as much to most people.

gelert 5y ago

This is also a thing in London where certain views towards St Pauls Cathedral are protected.

cm2187 5y ago
London isn't exactly a model of urban planning. There is a massive shortage of housing. And you end up with all new developments concentrated in a handful of areas.
- wayanon 5y ago
  I agree but if 100,000 homes became available tomorrow in London they’d sell in an instant. I don’t think any number will solve it - the problem is existing homes not being lived in and being used as income.
  - iso1210 5y ago
    How many homes in London are empty? Numbers I see are in the region of 25,000, out of 3.6 million, under 1%.
    - bmilleare 5y ago
      It would be more interesting to see those numbers in square footage and not straight counts. I would expect the majority of the 'empty' homes are the £10M+ ones in Knightsbridge, Chelsea, Kensington etc.
      - iso1210 5y ago
        Offices and hotels far more empty square footage
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    You could fit 59 Manhattans in the London Green Belt. Manhattan has 1.6 million residents. The problem is not building.

chrischen 5y ago

I guess they peaked in 447 BC.

searchableguy 5y ago

China has done the same recently. They are moving away from skyscrapers. Strict regulation for buildings taller than 250m. No approval for buildings taller than 500m. https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/arts-culture/article/3115225/chinese-provinces-fall-line-super-tall-buildings-ban-even https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/arts-culture/article/3115225/...

Jabbles 5y ago
That's not really the same thing as Athens at all. 250m is ~60 floors.
- searchableguy 5y ago
  I was pointing to the trend of curbing down on skyscrappers instead of a direct comparison. 250m is the limit for strict regulation. Newer buildings tend to be around 100m.
bobthepanda 5y ago
The article is paywalled for me. I would imagine that has more to do with curbing local officials’ habits of encouraging land speculation to plump up their budgets. The central government is trying to have its cake and eat it too when it comes to property that needs to rise in value to boost wealth but also not become totally unaffordable for first time buyers, and overheating the market doesn’t help with the latter.

maccard 5y ago

I live in Edinburgh, and we have "key views" (example of the centre ones here https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/download/13259/key-views---centre https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/download/13259/key-vi... - there's 5 or 6 pages but no link to them all) there's dozens of the views in the city, and no planning will be granted that materially changes the skyline in the views!

mysterydip 5y ago

The city of Charleston, SC has a set of height regulations: https://www.charleston-sc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/14414/Height-Regulations-Doc?bidId= https://www.charleston-sc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/14414/Heig...

deleted 5y ago

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