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I agree. It’s very rare that you think “they should be doing it like this” when you’re in Japan. The super fast train ticket machines, the coloured lines in the

I agree. It’s very rare that you think “they should be doing it like this” when you’re in Japan. The super fast train ticket machines, the coloured lines in the stations that tell you where to go, the wash basins that drain into the toilet reservoir. How did Germany get the efficiency stereotype and Japan didn’t?

tasogare 5y ago
> It’s very rare that you think “they should be doing it like this” when you’re in Japan. Then you probably haven’t been living there for long. There are tons of things to change, one of my biggest pet peeve being the lack of house insulation and inefficient warming options (reverse air-con, petrol burner instead of central heating). Another is having to sort recyclable material into different categories which are collected at different days (and just once a week) instead of having a dedicated common bin for them. Speaking of that, lack of trash bin in public space is very annoying too. > How did Germany get the efficiency stereotype and Japan didn’t? Because it’s a deeply inefficient society. Good results is achieved by throwing more humans, usually doing almost jack-shit, to problems. 10 workers cleaning the same square meter, 16 people on a task for few hours, 4 secretaries at a very small clinic, salaryman staying at work bot producing anything just to keep a good image, etc. I witnessed dozens of such examples. European countries are way more efficient in general in part because they know when to stop, and can’t afford to pay too much people being idle.
- Blikkentrekker 5y ago
  Japanese business culture is quite inefficient and stuck on archaic social protocol observance, but many modern technological advancements are quite efficient. Conversely, German culture is known for it's irrational clinging to cash opposed to electronic payment, obviously Corona is making it reconsider a bit. In Germany, there is a large line where products are manually scanned, paid for in cash, return calculated, and handed back, and before this cash had to be acquired from the a.t.m.; only slightly to the west in the Netherlands, products are chipped and all automatically scanned when passing through a gate, and paying is quickly done with a no contact card.
  - asutekku 5y ago
    Before covid-19 most places in japan accepted only cash. Pretty much only major chains were guaranteed to support electronic payments.
    - m4rtink 5y ago
      But the major places apparently really liked to accept cards - the only place I ever got to pay less (6% off!) by paying with card was in Yodobashi Camera in 2017. In comparison here in Europe many smaller shops still refuse to take cards or you used to be charged extra when paying with card.
      - nehalem501 5y ago
        Depends on the country, in France you can pay anywhere by card, including at outdoor market stalls...
  - allendoerfer 5y ago
    You picked the one example of actual German efficiency: Stationary retail. Competition is so hard that prices are Eastern European while incomes are Western European. Those chains are also expanding world-wide. It is one of the few segments where American companies could not succeed in the German market, even though they have tried to (e.g. Walmart).
  - suction 5y ago
    Not true whatsoever. Everybody in Germany (well I reckon more than 90% of people) use cash / debit cards ("EC-Karte") to pay at shops and for tickets / parking meters. Just because Germans don't always use credit cards for small payments, it doesn't mean they are paying cash that they get out of an ATM beforehand. And the millennial generation and younger use Apple Pay and similar systems on the same level as other countries. The "Germans refuse to pay with anything other than cash" myth / meme isn't true anymore since about the early 1990s.
- burnished 5y ago
  Why would you want the american system of recycling, where it literally just goes to the dump anyway? Separating clean recyclables is the right way to go.
- 77pt77 5y ago
  Most trash in Japan is incinerated anyway...
- zeitg3ist 5y ago
  I dunno, I live in Europe in a place that now does weekly door-to-door garbage collection, and the system is pretty good compared to the old one. You just leave the correct trash outside at the correct time and they come pick it up. I can’t think of anything easier...
  - ginko 5y ago
    Well I live in Europe as well and there's a bunch of containers(paper, plastic, glass+metal, residual) outside of my house I can throw my trash in any time of the week[1]. No need to keep track of the right day. So I'd say that's easier than your setup. [1] Maybe don't throw out glass or metal on the weekend or during the night
- adrianN 5y ago
  Heatpumps are a pretty good way to heat.
- idownvoted 5y ago
  > Speaking of that, lack of trash bin in public space is very annoying too. The few Japanese I know told me, that it is common (and thus expected) to carry your trash back home. In Germany there are some regions who are quite similar in that. Germans who live/d in Swabia routinely describe the inhabitants as "Garbage-Nazis" ;-) > 10 workers cleaning the same square meter Or people idling for hours until school/kindergarten closes to then guard the kids crossing the streets. Or programmers having to wear Helmets and Steel Toe Shoes every time they leave the desk until they reached the company's gates (because somewhere on that facility there is a production line). I have no explanation for that phenomenon.
- m4rtink 5y ago
  I got the idea the trash collection days are there for capacity reasons - there is simply not enough space to place separate containers for all the things that are being collected. Not to mention there often being no containers, just a designated spot on the ground where to put garbage in bags & anti cat net to cover it with. Here in Czech Republic we have separate recycling nests each having one container for paper, plastic and glass. Some nests also collect old textile and electronics. And it actually takes quite a lot of space, not to mention not being the most tidy spot arround. And you still need to place your regular communal garbage bins elsewhere, taking up more space.
- flippinburgers 5y ago
  Recycling is already a bit of a sham, but the single bin system is the worst option of all (it results in the lowest recycling numbers). Just an FYI. Japanese engineering is pretty amazing if you ask me. If you want an example of a culture where work is broken into absurd bits, there are better examples than Japan.
qalmakka 5y ago
> How did Germany get the efficiency stereotype and Japan didn’t? Everything in Japan still mostly relies on widespread use of fax machines due to their stubborn continued usage of personal wooden seals ("Hanko stamps"). Everyone at every level of management and burocracy has his/her own personal seal which has to be stamped on paper documents, which are then either scanned or sent via fax. This and a general stubborness on giving up certain deeply rooted but antiquated habits is one of the main reasons Japan is not famous for efficiency.
- benrbray 5y ago
  Actually, the pandemic has pushed many Japanese businesses (and the government) to finally deprecate the use of hanko/faxes for everything. Also, it's not just Japan. Fax machines are still integral to the American medical system [1], for instance. [1] https://www.vox.com/health-care/2017/10/30/16228054/american-medical-system-fax-machines-why https://www.vox.com/health-care/2017/10/30/16228054/american...
- 77pt77 5y ago
  You forgot to mention the most recent innovation in Japanese work culture: Excel. It's used for everything.
L_Rahman 5y ago
So many things in Japan are terribly inefficient. They just get some things right that we don't out of sheer necessity. Those clearly marked subway stations are there because of the inhuman rush hour crush that is the Tokyo Metro at 5PM. No Western country would find that acceptable, there would be weekly demands to build more rail capacity.
- benrbray 5y ago
  > there would be weekly demands to build more rail capacity As an American living in Japan, part of the reason I moved here is that I think I'd die waiting for any sizable fraction of Americans to demand more rail capacity! I'll happily choose a train full of sweaty salarymen over, say, rush hour traffic in Atlanta any day!
  - cmurf 5y ago
    The American equivalent: demand more road capacity. Rip out the trees! Rip out the bike lanes and side walks! Rip out a row of houses! MORE LANES! This really is generational, I only get it from baby boomer relatives and friends. X don't give a crap. And the younger generations say we should walk or bike everywhere. Will it last? Or will they be subsumed into this seemingly never ending Americana story line?
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      "And the younger generations say we should walk or bike everywhere. " And then they also say, more trains. Because you can combine walking and cycling quite good with a train.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  A friend of mine who visited Japan made this observation: "They had a person doing everything. If in our parking garage we'd have a screen pointing where to park, Japan would have a man waving a light stick."
  - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

tasogare 5y ago

> It’s very rare that you think “they should be doing it like this” when you’re in Japan. Then you probably haven’t been living there for long. There are tons of things to change, one of my biggest pet peeve being the lack of house insulation and inefficient warming options (reverse air-con, petrol burner instead of central heating). Another is having to sort recyclable material into different categories which are collected at different days (and just once a week) instead of having a dedicated common bin for them. Speaking of that, lack of trash bin in public space is very annoying too. > How did Germany get the efficiency stereotype and Japan didn’t? Because it’s a deeply inefficient society. Good results is achieved by throwing more humans, usually doing almost jack-shit, to problems. 10 workers cleaning the same square meter, 16 people on a task for few hours, 4 secretaries at a very small clinic, salaryman staying at work bot producing anything just to keep a good image, etc. I witnessed dozens of such examples. European countries are way more efficient in general in part because they know when to stop, and can’t afford to pay too much people being idle.

Blikkentrekker 5y ago
Japanese business culture is quite inefficient and stuck on archaic social protocol observance, but many modern technological advancements are quite efficient. Conversely, German culture is known for it's irrational clinging to cash opposed to electronic payment, obviously Corona is making it reconsider a bit. In Germany, there is a large line where products are manually scanned, paid for in cash, return calculated, and handed back, and before this cash had to be acquired from the a.t.m.; only slightly to the west in the Netherlands, products are chipped and all automatically scanned when passing through a gate, and paying is quickly done with a no contact card.
- asutekku 5y ago
  Before covid-19 most places in japan accepted only cash. Pretty much only major chains were guaranteed to support electronic payments.
  - m4rtink 5y ago
    But the major places apparently really liked to accept cards - the only place I ever got to pay less (6% off!) by paying with card was in Yodobashi Camera in 2017. In comparison here in Europe many smaller shops still refuse to take cards or you used to be charged extra when paying with card.
    - nehalem501 5y ago
      Depends on the country, in France you can pay anywhere by card, including at outdoor market stalls...
- allendoerfer 5y ago
  You picked the one example of actual German efficiency: Stationary retail. Competition is so hard that prices are Eastern European while incomes are Western European. Those chains are also expanding world-wide. It is one of the few segments where American companies could not succeed in the German market, even though they have tried to (e.g. Walmart).
- suction 5y ago
  Not true whatsoever. Everybody in Germany (well I reckon more than 90% of people) use cash / debit cards ("EC-Karte") to pay at shops and for tickets / parking meters. Just because Germans don't always use credit cards for small payments, it doesn't mean they are paying cash that they get out of an ATM beforehand. And the millennial generation and younger use Apple Pay and similar systems on the same level as other countries. The "Germans refuse to pay with anything other than cash" myth / meme isn't true anymore since about the early 1990s.
burnished 5y ago
Why would you want the american system of recycling, where it literally just goes to the dump anyway? Separating clean recyclables is the right way to go.
77pt77 5y ago
Most trash in Japan is incinerated anyway...
zeitg3ist 5y ago
I dunno, I live in Europe in a place that now does weekly door-to-door garbage collection, and the system is pretty good compared to the old one. You just leave the correct trash outside at the correct time and they come pick it up. I can’t think of anything easier...
- ginko 5y ago
  Well I live in Europe as well and there's a bunch of containers(paper, plastic, glass+metal, residual) outside of my house I can throw my trash in any time of the week[1]. No need to keep track of the right day. So I'd say that's easier than your setup. [1] Maybe don't throw out glass or metal on the weekend or during the night
adrianN 5y ago
Heatpumps are a pretty good way to heat.
idownvoted 5y ago
> Speaking of that, lack of trash bin in public space is very annoying too. The few Japanese I know told me, that it is common (and thus expected) to carry your trash back home. In Germany there are some regions who are quite similar in that. Germans who live/d in Swabia routinely describe the inhabitants as "Garbage-Nazis" ;-) > 10 workers cleaning the same square meter Or people idling for hours until school/kindergarten closes to then guard the kids crossing the streets. Or programmers having to wear Helmets and Steel Toe Shoes every time they leave the desk until they reached the company's gates (because somewhere on that facility there is a production line). I have no explanation for that phenomenon.
m4rtink 5y ago
I got the idea the trash collection days are there for capacity reasons - there is simply not enough space to place separate containers for all the things that are being collected. Not to mention there often being no containers, just a designated spot on the ground where to put garbage in bags & anti cat net to cover it with. Here in Czech Republic we have separate recycling nests each having one container for paper, plastic and glass. Some nests also collect old textile and electronics. And it actually takes quite a lot of space, not to mention not being the most tidy spot arround. And you still need to place your regular communal garbage bins elsewhere, taking up more space.
flippinburgers 5y ago
Recycling is already a bit of a sham, but the single bin system is the worst option of all (it results in the lowest recycling numbers). Just an FYI. Japanese engineering is pretty amazing if you ask me. If you want an example of a culture where work is broken into absurd bits, there are better examples than Japan.

qalmakka 5y ago

> How did Germany get the efficiency stereotype and Japan didn’t? Everything in Japan still mostly relies on widespread use of fax machines due to their stubborn continued usage of personal wooden seals ("Hanko stamps"). Everyone at every level of management and burocracy has his/her own personal seal which has to be stamped on paper documents, which are then either scanned or sent via fax. This and a general stubborness on giving up certain deeply rooted but antiquated habits is one of the main reasons Japan is not famous for efficiency.

benrbray 5y ago
Actually, the pandemic has pushed many Japanese businesses (and the government) to finally deprecate the use of hanko/faxes for everything. Also, it's not just Japan. Fax machines are still integral to the American medical system [1], for instance. [1] https://www.vox.com/health-care/2017/10/30/16228054/american-medical-system-fax-machines-why https://www.vox.com/health-care/2017/10/30/16228054/american...
77pt77 5y ago
You forgot to mention the most recent innovation in Japanese work culture: Excel. It's used for everything.

L_Rahman 5y ago

So many things in Japan are terribly inefficient. They just get some things right that we don't out of sheer necessity. Those clearly marked subway stations are there because of the inhuman rush hour crush that is the Tokyo Metro at 5PM. No Western country would find that acceptable, there would be weekly demands to build more rail capacity.

benrbray 5y ago
> there would be weekly demands to build more rail capacity As an American living in Japan, part of the reason I moved here is that I think I'd die waiting for any sizable fraction of Americans to demand more rail capacity! I'll happily choose a train full of sweaty salarymen over, say, rush hour traffic in Atlanta any day!
- cmurf 5y ago
  The American equivalent: demand more road capacity. Rip out the trees! Rip out the bike lanes and side walks! Rip out a row of houses! MORE LANES! This really is generational, I only get it from baby boomer relatives and friends. X don't give a crap. And the younger generations say we should walk or bike everywhere. Will it last? Or will they be subsumed into this seemingly never ending Americana story line?
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "And the younger generations say we should walk or bike everywhere. " And then they also say, more trains. Because you can combine walking and cycling quite good with a train.
Hamuko 5y ago
A friend of mine who visited Japan made this observation: "They had a person doing everything. If in our parking garage we'd have a screen pointing where to park, Japan would have a man waving a light stick."
- 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]