6 ms·

It looks great on the surface, living in Japan is a different story though. They have it just the way they want it, but it's only through teaching people to be

It looks great on the surface, living in Japan is a different story though. They have it just the way they want it, but it's only through teaching people to be quite subservient and obedient from a young age. There's a lot of unhappiness, loneliness etc. One thing I'd say about the Japanese is their incredibly resilient, like I've never seen a race of people who can put up with so much rubbish and not even complain at all. While it can be seen as a strength, In my opinion it's actually a problem, there's way too much apathy in Japan and in my view, Japan is going backwards, not forwards. They'll likely need another Meiji to get them out of the death spiral they're in. All of that being said, I absolutely love Japan and the culture ad the people, it's truly fascinating and ancient and "special", I just think it's a shame it have this view of perfectionof Japan from the outside, but the problems are mostly going unaddressed and nothing changes for the actual people of Japan, who are so kind.

vmception 6y ago
I found something similar of the shockingly unnecessary politeness that Canadians have, to the point that a US citizen might find it slightly creepy. Beneath the surface it's an oppressive circumstance for many, in Canada.
- joshspankit 6y ago
  As a Canadian, I fully agree but will also say that it didn’t used to be like that. Canadians held doors, helped each other, and apologized for being in the way because we had a deeply ingrained belief that everyone is equal. When every human being is equal to you, of course you would help, or point out TP on a shoe, or applaud their culture. However, at some point in the last 20 years “Excuse me” has gone from “We both have an equal right to this space, and I had not noticed I took more than my fair share” to “I’m dirt, and not worthy of taking space at all”. People who believe they are equal is perceived as “high and mighty”/ostracized, while people who believe they are dirt are welcomed as fellow commiserators to complain with. Fair warning: I’ve lived in Canada my whole life, and have watched a lot of shifts that either break my heart or frustrate me.
- Ensorceled 6y ago
  > Beneath the surface it's an oppressive circumstance for many, in Canada. As a Canadian ... what are you talking about? What's oppressive? Oppressive compared to what exactly?
  - vmception 6y ago
    There is a response that is 6 hours older, you can go invalidate that persons experience
- momirlan 6y ago
  It's a façade. Most "anglo" Canadians are very cold compared to Americans once you get closer.
  - vmception 6y ago
    yes, also that
- agumonkey 6y ago
  That's a kind of oppression I could suffer.
christiansakai 6y ago
Eh, every nation and culture has their problems. It is not a binary situation, everything has tradeoffs. Japan be Japan because they do the things that Japan does, and so Japan has Japan problems, not American or European problems. European do European way of doing things, that's why they have European problems. America does too.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
The more crowded a place and the higher the population, the more formal the culture and the more you need mechanisms to protect your privacy and politely but effectively tell a zillion strangers to butt out. The human mind is designed to work with a "tribe" of about 150 people. Above that and we have to layer culture and learned behaviors on top of innate traits to make the whole thing not implode.
- L_Rahman 6y ago
  I used to think this until I spent some time bouncing around East Asia. Tokyo is not even that dense relative to other high functioning Asian mega cities. Seoul is 3x, Taipei is 1.5x. They're much less polite places than Tokyo and manage to function really well.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
thkim 6y ago
It's not politically correct nor polite to say this, but Japan's problem is their education and cultural system ingrains subservience to the point that Japanese people are subservient even to injustice. It's not just inefficiency Japanese people put up with, they don't do anything about corrupt and ridiculous politicians having their way through generations. They call it a tradition, but they are just afraid of speaking out because of peer pressure. It's like a mafia system. I know that I sound very broad and generalizing, but those who have lived in Japan for long enough would probably agree with this.
- suction 6y ago
  Absolutely correct - and it's not "like" the Mafia system...a lot of it is the Mafia system. The Mafia in Japan has official office buildings and isn't illegal per se. It runs most of the entertainment sector (Movies, Music, Clubs, Concerts, Bars, Restaurants, Talent agencies, etc.) and all of the construction / real estate sector and sex industry. And it's used by the government as a secret police force. Most Yakuza "busts" happening in Japan are set-up for showing the outsiders (non-Japanese) that Japan is acting on organised crime. But they aren't. It's one foundation of their culture.
- bamboozled 6y ago
  It's the elephant in the room, it's absolutely true. It's like a hidden autocracy, people in the west probably think it's a democracy here. I mean, people can vote, but there's really only a single party with the same old ideas. I once read that the reason Buddhism became popular in Japan so quickly is because it gave people a break from the rigid hierarchy everyone was used too. I often wonder why it's less popular now and whether that's an accident.
  - cdavid 6y ago
    One of the main reason there is one party in power is because of the American occupation. While the American wanted to get rid of the the most "rightist" factions of the elite for obvious reasons, they quickly change to fight communism (see the book "embracing defeat"). I don't think it is an especially inherent Japanese thing. People can be very individualistic in Japan as well, it just expresses itself in a different way than more Western cultures. It is very broad generalization, but in the west we like to show ourselves as more individual than we really are, while it tends to be the opposite in Japan. Open conflict avoidance is certainly more common in e.g. corporations in Japan, at least in my experience. But that's a very narrow definition of collectivism.
arcsin 6y ago
I think it's the difference between an individualist and collectivist culture. I'd guess that especially the kind of people that would come to hackernews will have a hard time seeing the upside of collectivism and the downside of individualism (subservient having a strong negative connotation), but I think it's really mostly a tradeoff. Yes individualism is probably better for generating entrepreneurs. But you don't see things like people refusing to wear masks in Japan. There's lots of stories of things like Japanese people taking a long trip to return a lost wallet or picking up after each other at sports stadiums. I would say that in general there are more social obligations but also as a result more social trust. Probably if you grew up in a collectivist society then a lot of the things that you can see happening in the West will seem dysfunctional. Also I doubt more people are lonely in Japan than America, and some brief skimming the internet, research seems to support this.
- bamboozled 6y ago
  You do see people refusing to wear masks, I'm at a cafe (need internet) and people don't have masks on extremely rudely right now. Even thought there are sign asking them too. In my opinion, the issue with this collectivist society attitude is, very few people think for themselves unless they're explicitly told what to do. This has been the issue in Tokyo and Japan in general, it's wear masks, social distance, but get on a packed commuter train. People just do it, although it makes no practical sense and everyone knows it's stupid, it's just done. Look at the case numbers in Tokyo though, not going well.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    Well, having a mask in a packed train is probably better tgan no mask, so it makes some sense, when there is no alternative. (is home office enforced?) But I get your point. People doing collective things is not necessarily good. "Hey everyone, lets go to war" Ok.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    In my opinion, the issue with this collectivist society attitude is, very few people think for themselves unless they're explicitly told what to do. That's not limited to Japan, we have plenty of it in the Anglo-sphere as well.

vmception 6y ago

I found something similar of the shockingly unnecessary politeness that Canadians have, to the point that a US citizen might find it slightly creepy. Beneath the surface it's an oppressive circumstance for many, in Canada.

joshspankit 6y ago
As a Canadian, I fully agree but will also say that it didn’t used to be like that. Canadians held doors, helped each other, and apologized for being in the way because we had a deeply ingrained belief that everyone is equal. When every human being is equal to you, of course you would help, or point out TP on a shoe, or applaud their culture. However, at some point in the last 20 years “Excuse me” has gone from “We both have an equal right to this space, and I had not noticed I took more than my fair share” to “I’m dirt, and not worthy of taking space at all”. People who believe they are equal is perceived as “high and mighty”/ostracized, while people who believe they are dirt are welcomed as fellow commiserators to complain with. Fair warning: I’ve lived in Canada my whole life, and have watched a lot of shifts that either break my heart or frustrate me.
Ensorceled 6y ago
> Beneath the surface it's an oppressive circumstance for many, in Canada. As a Canadian ... what are you talking about? What's oppressive? Oppressive compared to what exactly?
- vmception 6y ago
  There is a response that is 6 hours older, you can go invalidate that persons experience
momirlan 6y ago
It's a façade. Most "anglo" Canadians are very cold compared to Americans once you get closer.
- vmception 6y ago
  yes, also that
agumonkey 6y ago
That's a kind of oppression I could suffer.

christiansakai 6y ago

Eh, every nation and culture has their problems. It is not a binary situation, everything has tradeoffs. Japan be Japan because they do the things that Japan does, and so Japan has Japan problems, not American or European problems. European do European way of doing things, that's why they have European problems. America does too.

DoreenMichele 6y ago

The more crowded a place and the higher the population, the more formal the culture and the more you need mechanisms to protect your privacy and politely but effectively tell a zillion strangers to butt out. The human mind is designed to work with a "tribe" of about 150 people. Above that and we have to layer culture and learned behaviors on top of innate traits to make the whole thing not implode.

L_Rahman 6y ago
I used to think this until I spent some time bouncing around East Asia. Tokyo is not even that dense relative to other high functioning Asian mega cities. Seoul is 3x, Taipei is 1.5x. They're much less polite places than Tokyo and manage to function really well.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

thkim 6y ago

It's not politically correct nor polite to say this, but Japan's problem is their education and cultural system ingrains subservience to the point that Japanese people are subservient even to injustice. It's not just inefficiency Japanese people put up with, they don't do anything about corrupt and ridiculous politicians having their way through generations. They call it a tradition, but they are just afraid of speaking out because of peer pressure. It's like a mafia system. I know that I sound very broad and generalizing, but those who have lived in Japan for long enough would probably agree with this.

suction 6y ago
Absolutely correct - and it's not "like" the Mafia system...a lot of it is the Mafia system. The Mafia in Japan has official office buildings and isn't illegal per se. It runs most of the entertainment sector (Movies, Music, Clubs, Concerts, Bars, Restaurants, Talent agencies, etc.) and all of the construction / real estate sector and sex industry. And it's used by the government as a secret police force. Most Yakuza "busts" happening in Japan are set-up for showing the outsiders (non-Japanese) that Japan is acting on organised crime. But they aren't. It's one foundation of their culture.
bamboozled 6y ago
It's the elephant in the room, it's absolutely true. It's like a hidden autocracy, people in the west probably think it's a democracy here. I mean, people can vote, but there's really only a single party with the same old ideas. I once read that the reason Buddhism became popular in Japan so quickly is because it gave people a break from the rigid hierarchy everyone was used too. I often wonder why it's less popular now and whether that's an accident.
- cdavid 6y ago
  One of the main reason there is one party in power is because of the American occupation. While the American wanted to get rid of the the most "rightist" factions of the elite for obvious reasons, they quickly change to fight communism (see the book "embracing defeat"). I don't think it is an especially inherent Japanese thing. People can be very individualistic in Japan as well, it just expresses itself in a different way than more Western cultures. It is very broad generalization, but in the west we like to show ourselves as more individual than we really are, while it tends to be the opposite in Japan. Open conflict avoidance is certainly more common in e.g. corporations in Japan, at least in my experience. But that's a very narrow definition of collectivism.

arcsin 6y ago

I think it's the difference between an individualist and collectivist culture. I'd guess that especially the kind of people that would come to hackernews will have a hard time seeing the upside of collectivism and the downside of individualism (subservient having a strong negative connotation), but I think it's really mostly a tradeoff. Yes individualism is probably better for generating entrepreneurs. But you don't see things like people refusing to wear masks in Japan. There's lots of stories of things like Japanese people taking a long trip to return a lost wallet or picking up after each other at sports stadiums. I would say that in general there are more social obligations but also as a result more social trust. Probably if you grew up in a collectivist society then a lot of the things that you can see happening in the West will seem dysfunctional. Also I doubt more people are lonely in Japan than America, and some brief skimming the internet, research seems to support this.

bamboozled 6y ago
You do see people refusing to wear masks, I'm at a cafe (need internet) and people don't have masks on extremely rudely right now. Even thought there are sign asking them too. In my opinion, the issue with this collectivist society attitude is, very few people think for themselves unless they're explicitly told what to do. This has been the issue in Tokyo and Japan in general, it's wear masks, social distance, but get on a packed commuter train. People just do it, although it makes no practical sense and everyone knows it's stupid, it's just done. Look at the case numbers in Tokyo though, not going well.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  Well, having a mask in a packed train is probably better tgan no mask, so it makes some sense, when there is no alternative. (is home office enforced?) But I get your point. People doing collective things is not necessarily good. "Hey everyone, lets go to war" Ok.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  In my opinion, the issue with this collectivist society attitude is, very few people think for themselves unless they're explicitly told what to do. That's not limited to Japan, we have plenty of it in the Anglo-sphere as well.