5 ms·

Why would a rail manager learn (about) something that has no practical utility and requires a massive investment of effort (graduate mathematical training)?

Jtsummers 6y ago
I had never heard of "tropical algebra" so I have no idea of its utility here. I'm only commenting on the distinction between learning about something and learning something. The former enables you to direct your learning towards learning the thing itself when you realize it's applicable (JIT for learning) if that's your role. And if you're in a leadership position it helps you to recognize the insights those you are in charge of are bringing to you and their relative applicability, or to direct them towards a line of work that may be useful. (Of course, there's a level of incompetent awareness that often happens as well, and that's how SAFe shops are born.)
- spekcular 6y ago
  Let me be more direct. Tropical algebra is no of practical relevance to rail route planning. My understanding is that there's some highly speculative work in this direction, but nothing ready to be applied, or any indication this approach is more useful than standard methods. What you are seeing is someone who previously did pure mathematics wheel out a personal obsession and then (unwisely) chastise people for not caring about it. Therefore, we should we should not care whether rail managers learn, or learn about, tropical algebra. (Another observation: look at all the highly efficient European and Asian railways. As far as I can tell, algebraic geometry was used in the planning of exactly zero of them. American rail isn't going to be fixed by the application of high-powered mathematics.)
  - resonantjacket5 6y ago
    I thought it was used for the railway timetables
    - spekcular 6y ago
      Does there exist any evidence tropical algebra is used in practice, and is significantly better than older approaches to the problem? As far as I know, the answer is negative.
      - gregsq 6y ago
        It’s a research field in the UK at least. For the UK’s extensive rail network. https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/railway/index.aspx https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/railway/index.aspx Edit: Further symposium on this subject. https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/mathematics/news-and-events/events/2018/tropical-mathematics-optimisation-railways.aspx https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/mathematics/news-and-ev...
        nicklecompte 6y ago
        The symposium certainly sounds interesting. Looking at the talks, I am struck by the major separation between talks about tropical algebra and talks about railway optimization. But the point of our comments is that this is a new research field, with very little proven application, and chastising railway middle managers for not following these deeply technical and somewhat esoteric developments is silly. It’s like getting on to a manger at Intel because they are unfamiliar with the architecture of photonic quantum computers.
        gregsq 6y ago
        There are financial incentives to solve scheduling issues in the UK. Trains must meet a schedule within time limits. Failure to maintain reliability at a regulatory 90.9% can mean the loss of the license to operate. The UK interconnects with European networks via Eurostar, and the major hubs feed it. The tube runs trains every minute or two so connecting between these hubs, for example Waterloo to Kings Cross isn’t usually an issue. But arriving late at a hub can be very disruptive. Middle managers, in europe generally, focused on targets don’t need to understand the math, but are in a competitive market that can require mathematicians to model and solve scheduling issues. https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2018/05/tropical_mathematics_and_optim.html https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2018/05/tropical_mathem... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/late-network-rail-breaches-licence-6279260.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/late-network...
  - scythe 6y ago
    >What you are seeing is someone who previously did pure mathematics wheel out a personal obsession and then (unwisely) chastise people for not caring about it. Hanlon's Razor suggests it's more likely that tropical algebra is just one of a relatively few examples of rail planning theory that the author is familiar with, not that he has a pernicious drive to promote the study. As I understand it, it mostly is a transformation of expressions like: Exp(vars, max(,), plus(,)) to give expressions like Exp(vars, plus(,), times(,)) where solutions to the latter can give solutions to the former under some conditions. It seems plausible that some specialized versions could be explained to someone with a reasonably good understanding of high school math. New math doesn't have to be abstruse. But all I know is I ran into a tropical algebra problem once and it was intractable.
nixpulvis 6y ago
Learning mustn't require mastery. Learning begins when you open the door.
dundarious 6y ago
> I didn't need the managers to learn git (in the sense of being able to use it) but... The analogy states they don't need managers to learn the thing, just to have awareness of an alternative thing to the current thing. Implicit is a criticism of managers being didactic in specifying required tools/solutions, too often favoring "our way"/"the old way".
addicted 6y ago
The author isn’t suggesting that middle managers learn tropical algebra. Just that it exists, and what sort of benefits it can bring. It’s like saying that middle managers need not know how to use git or Docker, but they should know that they exist and what they can be used for.

Jtsummers 6y ago

I had never heard of "tropical algebra" so I have no idea of its utility here. I'm only commenting on the distinction between learning about something and learning something. The former enables you to direct your learning towards learning the thing itself when you realize it's applicable (JIT for learning) if that's your role. And if you're in a leadership position it helps you to recognize the insights those you are in charge of are bringing to you and their relative applicability, or to direct them towards a line of work that may be useful. (Of course, there's a level of incompetent awareness that often happens as well, and that's how SAFe shops are born.)

spekcular 6y ago
Let me be more direct. Tropical algebra is no of practical relevance to rail route planning. My understanding is that there's some highly speculative work in this direction, but nothing ready to be applied, or any indication this approach is more useful than standard methods. What you are seeing is someone who previously did pure mathematics wheel out a personal obsession and then (unwisely) chastise people for not caring about it. Therefore, we should we should not care whether rail managers learn, or learn about, tropical algebra. (Another observation: look at all the highly efficient European and Asian railways. As far as I can tell, algebraic geometry was used in the planning of exactly zero of them. American rail isn't going to be fixed by the application of high-powered mathematics.)
- resonantjacket5 6y ago
  I thought it was used for the railway timetables
  - spekcular 6y ago
    Does there exist any evidence tropical algebra is used in practice, and is significantly better than older approaches to the problem? As far as I know, the answer is negative.
    - gregsq 6y ago
      It’s a research field in the UK at least. For the UK’s extensive rail network. https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/railway/index.aspx https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/railway/index.aspx Edit: Further symposium on this subject. https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/mathematics/news-and-events/events/2018/tropical-mathematics-optimisation-railways.aspx https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/mathematics/news-and-ev...
      - nicklecompte 6y ago
        The symposium certainly sounds interesting. Looking at the talks, I am struck by the major separation between talks about tropical algebra and talks about railway optimization. But the point of our comments is that this is a new research field, with very little proven application, and chastising railway middle managers for not following these deeply technical and somewhat esoteric developments is silly. It’s like getting on to a manger at Intel because they are unfamiliar with the architecture of photonic quantum computers.
        gregsq 6y ago
        There are financial incentives to solve scheduling issues in the UK. Trains must meet a schedule within time limits. Failure to maintain reliability at a regulatory 90.9% can mean the loss of the license to operate. The UK interconnects with European networks via Eurostar, and the major hubs feed it. The tube runs trains every minute or two so connecting between these hubs, for example Waterloo to Kings Cross isn’t usually an issue. But arriving late at a hub can be very disruptive. Middle managers, in europe generally, focused on targets don’t need to understand the math, but are in a competitive market that can require mathematicians to model and solve scheduling issues. https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2018/05/tropical_mathematics_and_optim.html https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2018/05/tropical_mathem... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/late-network-rail-breaches-licence-6279260.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/late-network...
- scythe 6y ago
  >What you are seeing is someone who previously did pure mathematics wheel out a personal obsession and then (unwisely) chastise people for not caring about it. Hanlon's Razor suggests it's more likely that tropical algebra is just one of a relatively few examples of rail planning theory that the author is familiar with, not that he has a pernicious drive to promote the study. As I understand it, it mostly is a transformation of expressions like: Exp(vars, max(,), plus(,)) to give expressions like Exp(vars, plus(,), times(,)) where solutions to the latter can give solutions to the former under some conditions. It seems plausible that some specialized versions could be explained to someone with a reasonably good understanding of high school math. New math doesn't have to be abstruse. But all I know is I ran into a tropical algebra problem once and it was intractable.

nixpulvis 6y ago

Learning mustn't require mastery. Learning begins when you open the door.

dundarious 6y ago

> I didn't need the managers to learn git (in the sense of being able to use it) but... The analogy states they don't need managers to learn the thing, just to have awareness of an alternative thing to the current thing. Implicit is a criticism of managers being didactic in specifying required tools/solutions, too often favoring "our way"/"the old way".

addicted 6y ago

The author isn’t suggesting that middle managers learn tropical algebra. Just that it exists, and what sort of benefits it can bring. It’s like saying that middle managers need not know how to use git or Docker, but they should know that they exist and what they can be used for.