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When Zawi Hawass retires virtually every existing Egyptology book will worth less than the paper it is printed on.

throwaway17_17 5y ago
For someone who is unaware of Zawi Hawass and pretty uninformed about any serious Egyptology, can you explain what you mean. It seems a very interest topic for some medium reading while I wait in court tomorrow.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Zawi Hawass is like your over-zealous Wikipedia editor. He controls access to Egyptian antiquities. He has one story, and won't tolerate confusion. Everyone working has to be careful not to publish anything that might motivate him to exclude them. Not so different, really, from a lot of professors and Wikipedia editors, but with the power of the State behind his opinions.
  - BurningFrog 5y ago
    So Egyptology isn't really a science today, and I should not trust what I hear too much?
    - tastyfreeze 5y ago
      Yes, there are several artifacts that dont fit the Hawass history of Egypt. But attempts to change the known history have been stymied by Hawass.
    - sintaxi 5y ago
      Lots of amazing work is being done in Egypt right now most of it IMHO being done by Geologists because they are much less likely to have any attachment towards any established theory. Zawi Hawass seems to have contempt for anyone who comes to conclusions that doesn't align with the gated narrative even when those conclusion are very well reasoned (For example: water erosion around the Sphinx). The official narrative that we were all taught in school of "Pyramids were built 4500 years ago as tombs by Khufu" I would say is understood to be highly inaccurate at this point by anyone outside of the Hawass circle.
      - generalizations 5y ago
        > The official narrative that we were all taught in school of "Pyramids were built 4500 years ago as tombs by Khufu" I would say is understood to be highly inaccurate at this point by anyone outside of the Hawass circle. I never heard of that before. What is thought to be more accurate?
        sintaxi 5y ago
        First of all, nobody knows who built them, how they were built, nor why they were built. We only have vague guesses at this point. No bodies were ever found in any of the Pyramids on the Giza plateau - and despite the Egyptians documenting everything, there are no claims by them that Khufu or anyone else in their documented history built the Pyramids. Pharaohs were buried in the Valley of the Kings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_the_Kings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_the_Kings
        jhgb 5y ago
        Uh, the Valley of the Kings was only actively used for a comparatively short period throughout Egypt's entire history. What does it have to do with this? What do you think Egyptians did with their kings before the Valley of the Kings was established and after it ceased to be used? > First of all, nobody knows who built them, how they were built, nor why they were built. > and despite the Egyptians documenting everything, there are no claims by them that Khufu or anyone else in their documented history built the Pyramids. https://www.livescience.com/55439-ancient-logbook-on-great-pyramid-unveiled.html https://www.livescience.com/55439-ancient-logbook-on-great-p... > Over a period of several months, [the logbook] reports — in [the] form of a timetable with two columns per day — many operations related to the construction of the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza and the work at the limestone quarries on the opposite bank of the Nile I guess this Merer guy is one of those you were looking for.
        sintaxi 5y ago
        1) There are hundreds of Pyramids in that area. To my understanding no bodies were found in any of them. 2) Gold and copper are the metals available during Khufu's reign. Is it reasonable to you that copper (or even Iron) was used to cut granite? 3) 2.5 Million blocks were used in the construction of the Great Pyramid. Weight of blocks range from 1-10 tons each. 4) The granite for the "King's Chamber" was brought 934km to Giza from Aswan 5) A 20 year construction timeline as claimed would mean a block would have to be cut from the quarry, moved to location, and placed in the correct spot every 4 minutes with construction running 24 hours a day 7 days a week without stopping. Is it not more reasonable to conclude Khufu simply performed maintenance on the outer casings? A 20 year project with a 200 men crew to polish outer casings seems about right to me.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Pre-literate antiquities are in bad shape everywhere. In Egypt it is just easiest to see. Fertile Crescent. Caucasus. Indus Valley. China. Peru. Amazon. Sundaland. There will be plenty of opportunity to shake things up someday.
- wl 5y ago
  Zawi Hawass deserves a lot of criticism for being a fickle, controlling gatekeeper of archeological work in Egypt in his former role as Egyptian Minister of Antiquities. He often seems more interested in glorifying himself and promoting revenue than the scholarly exploration of the past. That said, he no longer holds any official position with the government. The Ministry of Antiquities has continued some of his bad policy. He still probably has some influence. But the people in this thread seem more upset with his dismissal of crank theories that contradict the consensus chronology established through dendochronology, radiocarbon dating, and correlating written records. Hawass was not responsible for creating this chronology.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Surface luminescence studies have been conducted on remarkably few samples. A test on a facing block of Menkaure's pyramid indicated the block was last exposed 5000 +/- 500 years ago, just barely edging into the conventional age of 4500 years. Given the technique's obvious utility, the lack of interest seen in applying it can reasonably be interpreted as unwillingness to have conventional interpretations tested. "Crank" is a prejudicial term when applied to topics with only conventional consensus, without evidentiary backing.
    - wl 5y ago
      The more boring explanation: Egypt wants to control the exploitation of Pharaonic material culture under their control, which they consider their cultural patrimony. If they can't do the tests and get the glory, they don't want others to do so instead. For an example of this, see Hawass' decision preventing foreigners from doing DNA testing of mummies in Egypt, dismissing it as useless, followed by him personally publishing such work a decade later. In any case, there is plenty of Old Kingdom material in foreign museums that is available for testing.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        Surface luminescence testing depends on the sample not having been exposed to light since it was placed, something hard to ascertain for items shipped to a museum.

For someone who is unaware of Zawi Hawass and pretty uninformed about any serious Egyptology, can you explain what you mean. It seems a very interest topic for some medium reading while I wait in court tomorrow.

ncmncm 5y ago
Zawi Hawass is like your over-zealous Wikipedia editor. He controls access to Egyptian antiquities. He has one story, and won't tolerate confusion. Everyone working has to be careful not to publish anything that might motivate him to exclude them. Not so different, really, from a lot of professors and Wikipedia editors, but with the power of the State behind his opinions.
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  So Egyptology isn't really a science today, and I should not trust what I hear too much?
  - tastyfreeze 5y ago
    Yes, there are several artifacts that dont fit the Hawass history of Egypt. But attempts to change the known history have been stymied by Hawass.
  - sintaxi 5y ago
    Lots of amazing work is being done in Egypt right now most of it IMHO being done by Geologists because they are much less likely to have any attachment towards any established theory. Zawi Hawass seems to have contempt for anyone who comes to conclusions that doesn't align with the gated narrative even when those conclusion are very well reasoned (For example: water erosion around the Sphinx). The official narrative that we were all taught in school of "Pyramids were built 4500 years ago as tombs by Khufu" I would say is understood to be highly inaccurate at this point by anyone outside of the Hawass circle.
    - generalizations 5y ago
      > The official narrative that we were all taught in school of "Pyramids were built 4500 years ago as tombs by Khufu" I would say is understood to be highly inaccurate at this point by anyone outside of the Hawass circle. I never heard of that before. What is thought to be more accurate?
      - sintaxi 5y ago
        First of all, nobody knows who built them, how they were built, nor why they were built. We only have vague guesses at this point. No bodies were ever found in any of the Pyramids on the Giza plateau - and despite the Egyptians documenting everything, there are no claims by them that Khufu or anyone else in their documented history built the Pyramids. Pharaohs were buried in the Valley of the Kings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_the_Kings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_the_Kings
        jhgb 5y ago
        Uh, the Valley of the Kings was only actively used for a comparatively short period throughout Egypt's entire history. What does it have to do with this? What do you think Egyptians did with their kings before the Valley of the Kings was established and after it ceased to be used? > First of all, nobody knows who built them, how they were built, nor why they were built. > and despite the Egyptians documenting everything, there are no claims by them that Khufu or anyone else in their documented history built the Pyramids. https://www.livescience.com/55439-ancient-logbook-on-great-pyramid-unveiled.html https://www.livescience.com/55439-ancient-logbook-on-great-p... > Over a period of several months, [the logbook] reports — in [the] form of a timetable with two columns per day — many operations related to the construction of the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza and the work at the limestone quarries on the opposite bank of the Nile I guess this Merer guy is one of those you were looking for.
        sintaxi 5y ago
        1) There are hundreds of Pyramids in that area. To my understanding no bodies were found in any of them. 2) Gold and copper are the metals available during Khufu's reign. Is it reasonable to you that copper (or even Iron) was used to cut granite? 3) 2.5 Million blocks were used in the construction of the Great Pyramid. Weight of blocks range from 1-10 tons each. 4) The granite for the "King's Chamber" was brought 934km to Giza from Aswan 5) A 20 year construction timeline as claimed would mean a block would have to be cut from the quarry, moved to location, and placed in the correct spot every 4 minutes with construction running 24 hours a day 7 days a week without stopping. Is it not more reasonable to conclude Khufu simply performed maintenance on the outer casings? A 20 year project with a 200 men crew to polish outer casings seems about right to me.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Pre-literate antiquities are in bad shape everywhere. In Egypt it is just easiest to see. Fertile Crescent. Caucasus. Indus Valley. China. Peru. Amazon. Sundaland. There will be plenty of opportunity to shake things up someday.
wl 5y ago
Zawi Hawass deserves a lot of criticism for being a fickle, controlling gatekeeper of archeological work in Egypt in his former role as Egyptian Minister of Antiquities. He often seems more interested in glorifying himself and promoting revenue than the scholarly exploration of the past. That said, he no longer holds any official position with the government. The Ministry of Antiquities has continued some of his bad policy. He still probably has some influence. But the people in this thread seem more upset with his dismissal of crank theories that contradict the consensus chronology established through dendochronology, radiocarbon dating, and correlating written records. Hawass was not responsible for creating this chronology.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Surface luminescence studies have been conducted on remarkably few samples. A test on a facing block of Menkaure's pyramid indicated the block was last exposed 5000 +/- 500 years ago, just barely edging into the conventional age of 4500 years. Given the technique's obvious utility, the lack of interest seen in applying it can reasonably be interpreted as unwillingness to have conventional interpretations tested. "Crank" is a prejudicial term when applied to topics with only conventional consensus, without evidentiary backing.
  - wl 5y ago
    The more boring explanation: Egypt wants to control the exploitation of Pharaonic material culture under their control, which they consider their cultural patrimony. If they can't do the tests and get the glory, they don't want others to do so instead. For an example of this, see Hawass' decision preventing foreigners from doing DNA testing of mummies in Egypt, dismissing it as useless, followed by him personally publishing such work a decade later. In any case, there is plenty of Old Kingdom material in foreign museums that is available for testing.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Surface luminescence testing depends on the sample not having been exposed to light since it was placed, something hard to ascertain for items shipped to a museum.