5 ms·

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing the technique is widely known. not every coppiced tree can be convinced to gro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing the technique is widely known. not every coppiced tree can be convinced to grow straight, though.

Isamu 6y ago
I came here to mention coppicing as well. In medieval Europe forests were highly managed or farmed, and this technique produced a steady source of straight poles that were used in various diameters.
- msrenee 6y ago
  Can you point me towards anyone using pollarding or coppicing to produce lumber? That's not at all what I was taught those techniques are for. It's hard to imagine the resulting shoots getting big enough to make boards out of in a reasonable amount of time.
  - theiz 6y ago
    Mainly used for fencing. Either poles, or the fence itself woven from smaller branches.
  - bildung 6y ago
    Think furniture legs, tool handles, spears, bows and arrows, wooden spoons, knives and cups and so on. The bark was of interest for the tannin. The wood was also used for generating charcoal and tar.
    - msrenee 6y ago
      That makes sense. I knew you could generate wood for fuel in this manner. I think I got my wires crossed and thought I was replying to a comment that suggested it was a form of lumber production. Lumber in my mind, and according to Wikipedia because I had to double check myself, is wood that can be milled into boards, which I couldn't imagine being produced from a pollarded tree.
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  Once you see coppicing it's one of those things you'll notice everywhere that was cultivated for a long period of time. I'm surprised at how straight the shoots would grow, and farmers were pretty good at managing and multiplying timber using this method.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    I just responded to a sibling pointed out that Rome records pollarding for at least 2100 years, but pollard and coppice are also critical to First Nations crafts in the new world as well. I think the only reason it dates to 100 BC in Rome is due to the limitations of recorded history, not a lack of imagination. I'd place reasonable odds that coppice/pollard are older than the written word. In fact this is probably middle stone age technology. How many decent spears can you make without pollarding? Let alone arrows, which you would need ten times as many of... Since Japan appears to have already had long bows before recorded history, it's probably more accurate to say this particular variant of pollarding in Japan dates back 600 years, and is tuned specifically for creating posts (and beams?) which are defining elements of Japanese architecture. Pollard is great for making spears and staves, good for making fences (up to and including the posts), but not so great for making houses.
    - bobthepanda 6y ago
      According to the article it sounds like Japan used these in roofs and rafters, rather than as main structural elements of a building.
      - hinkley 6y ago
        Maybe we’re splitting hairs or I’m using my construction terms wrong, but I would include “roof timbers” loosely under the category of “beams”. Perhaps my sense of scale was off in the pictures, but I could easily see poles that size used for secondary beams.
- msrenee 6y ago
  I just have never seen a pollarded tree that produced large enough shoots to be called a pole. A pole in my mind is 4-5" in diameter. Everything I can find says pollarded trees were used to produce fuel and small diameter wood for crafts.
oasisbob 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollarding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollarding is another similar technique, probably most similar to this one. It's an interesting one to discuss with arborists. In North America, there isn't a long history of pollarded trees, so the technique is generally frowned upon since it's essentially "topping", a universally derided pruning method. European arborists who maintain historical trees are more familiar with pollarding, and commonly are asked to explain why they believe their continuance of topping is defensible as a modern or scientific technique in the care of trees.
- hinkley 6y ago
  Pollarding, according to Wikipedia, was first mentioned by a Roman poet 2100 years ago. You could claim sort of convergent evolution, but I find it hard to believe that a 1500 year old Roman cultivation technique was reinvented in Japan almost exactly at the apex of China's naval power. This smells of corporate espionage.
  - yorwba 6y ago
    Apex of naval power? In the 16th century? Aren't you forgetting about the Haijin? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin Also, how would Chinese naval power help Japanese foresters learn a new technique for pruning trees?
    - pvaldes 6y ago
      ships needed masts
    - hinkley 6y ago
      -100 + 1500 = 1400 > Also, how would Chinese naval power help Japanese foresters learn A bit rusty on my Asian history, but cultural exchange between China and Japan has been going on for millennia. Writing, food (rice imported 500 BC), culture, religion. It wasn’t until the mid 1600’s that Japan shut down and did their own thing.
OJFord 6y ago
It's closer to pollarding isn't it? But even that's more 'let's make the tree bushy at this height' than the 'let's have normal-looking trees above this point as a starting platform' that daisugi seems to be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing the technique is widely known. not every coppiced tree can be convinced to grow straight, though.

Isamu 6y ago

I came here to mention coppicing as well. In medieval Europe forests were highly managed or farmed, and this technique produced a steady source of straight poles that were used in various diameters.

msrenee 6y ago
Can you point me towards anyone using pollarding or coppicing to produce lumber? That's not at all what I was taught those techniques are for. It's hard to imagine the resulting shoots getting big enough to make boards out of in a reasonable amount of time.
- theiz 6y ago
  Mainly used for fencing. Either poles, or the fence itself woven from smaller branches.
- bildung 6y ago
  Think furniture legs, tool handles, spears, bows and arrows, wooden spoons, knives and cups and so on. The bark was of interest for the tannin. The wood was also used for generating charcoal and tar.
  - msrenee 6y ago
    That makes sense. I knew you could generate wood for fuel in this manner. I think I got my wires crossed and thought I was replying to a comment that suggested it was a form of lumber production. Lumber in my mind, and according to Wikipedia because I had to double check myself, is wood that can be milled into boards, which I couldn't imagine being produced from a pollarded tree.
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
Once you see coppicing it's one of those things you'll notice everywhere that was cultivated for a long period of time. I'm surprised at how straight the shoots would grow, and farmers were pretty good at managing and multiplying timber using this method.
- hinkley 6y ago
  I just responded to a sibling pointed out that Rome records pollarding for at least 2100 years, but pollard and coppice are also critical to First Nations crafts in the new world as well. I think the only reason it dates to 100 BC in Rome is due to the limitations of recorded history, not a lack of imagination. I'd place reasonable odds that coppice/pollard are older than the written word. In fact this is probably middle stone age technology. How many decent spears can you make without pollarding? Let alone arrows, which you would need ten times as many of... Since Japan appears to have already had long bows before recorded history, it's probably more accurate to say this particular variant of pollarding in Japan dates back 600 years, and is tuned specifically for creating posts (and beams?) which are defining elements of Japanese architecture. Pollard is great for making spears and staves, good for making fences (up to and including the posts), but not so great for making houses.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    According to the article it sounds like Japan used these in roofs and rafters, rather than as main structural elements of a building.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      Maybe we’re splitting hairs or I’m using my construction terms wrong, but I would include “roof timbers” loosely under the category of “beams”. Perhaps my sense of scale was off in the pictures, but I could easily see poles that size used for secondary beams.
msrenee 6y ago
I just have never seen a pollarded tree that produced large enough shoots to be called a pole. A pole in my mind is 4-5" in diameter. Everything I can find says pollarded trees were used to produce fuel and small diameter wood for crafts.

oasisbob 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollarding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollarding is another similar technique, probably most similar to this one. It's an interesting one to discuss with arborists. In North America, there isn't a long history of pollarded trees, so the technique is generally frowned upon since it's essentially "topping", a universally derided pruning method. European arborists who maintain historical trees are more familiar with pollarding, and commonly are asked to explain why they believe their continuance of topping is defensible as a modern or scientific technique in the care of trees.

hinkley 6y ago
Pollarding, according to Wikipedia, was first mentioned by a Roman poet 2100 years ago. You could claim sort of convergent evolution, but I find it hard to believe that a 1500 year old Roman cultivation technique was reinvented in Japan almost exactly at the apex of China's naval power. This smells of corporate espionage.
- yorwba 6y ago
  Apex of naval power? In the 16th century? Aren't you forgetting about the Haijin? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin Also, how would Chinese naval power help Japanese foresters learn a new technique for pruning trees?
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    ships needed masts
  - hinkley 6y ago
    -100 + 1500 = 1400 > Also, how would Chinese naval power help Japanese foresters learn A bit rusty on my Asian history, but cultural exchange between China and Japan has been going on for millennia. Writing, food (rice imported 500 BC), culture, religion. It wasn’t until the mid 1600’s that Japan shut down and did their own thing.

OJFord 6y ago

It's closer to pollarding isn't it? But even that's more 'let's make the tree bushy at this height' than the 'let's have normal-looking trees above this point as a starting platform' that daisugi seems to be.