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The key words for me in all you wrote are "from what we know". What I know is that the Mayans who still live there say our archaeologists here tend to ignore t

by oblib 5y ago

The key words for me in all you wrote are "from what we know". What I know is that the Mayans who still live there say our archaeologists here tend to ignore them. Two Mayan Park Rangers told me that while I was standing on top of a pyramid enjoying the refreshing breeze up there on a vicious hot and humid day. One of the things I noticed in all those places (Cahokia, Belize, Guatemala, Mexico) is that refreshing breeze and I mentioned that to those Mayan Park Rangers because it occurred to me after visiting many sites there that maybe those structures were built to provide a place to cool down from working in the fields below and they were both astonished. They instantly changed their attitude and started talking to me. They confirmed that is why they were built and went on to say that the archaeologists who come there are completely dismissive and arrogant and don't ever talk to them to try and learn from them. That's what they told me. You can do what you will with it. Finally, what those Park Rangers at Cahokia said was boilerplate legalese. It was not a conversation I had with them. They refused to converse because they are instructed to not even discuss it. Go there and test it yourself.

AlotOfReading 5y ago
I'm not a mesoamericanist. The relationship between indigenous mayans and archeologists is indeed complicated and highly political, but not particularly relevant to our discussion here. Since you seem to be fishing for someone to point out the issues in your pet theories, I find it useful to start from the assumption that historical peoples weren't stupid about how to achieve their goals. Let's look at the cooling platform hypothesis in that light: 1) It takes a lot less labor to build a tower (like they did at palenque) than to build a pyramid. 2) It kind of defeats the purpose of a breeze driven cooling platform to have a big temple and narrow doors taking up most of the usable area. Triadic pyramids might fit the bill except for all the obvious reasons they don't. 3) The stairs are uncomfortably steep even for modern people. 4) The pyramids are pretty far from where they would have grown crops. Instead they're on elevated rocky ground that could support them. 5) Big fields of crops weren't really the classical mayan style of agriculture. Mayans tended to live in reasonable proximity to their fields and it's baffling why they'd walk a fair distance to the pyramid when they could retire to their much closer, presumably comfortable houses. 6) Cooling platforms would have kept being useful, but mayans stopped building, maintaining, or even using these structures in the postclassic. People will tell you a lot of things, particularly in tourist traps. Many will also agree with whatever crazy ideas you come up with in the interests of appearing friendly and/or for money. You don't necessarily need to take everything at face value (a lesson I've been trying to teach my father for years).
- oblib 5y ago
  You have no good idea about where and how Mayans grew their crops and the notion that those structures were built far away from where they grew and harvested food nothing more than a notion. The Mayans that live there confirmed my assumption. Go tell them they're wrong
- oblib 5y ago
  I'll tell you what gets their feathers ruffled are guys like you who don't even ask them what they know and think. And the park I'm talking about where that conversation took is not a "tourist trap". Almost every visitor there was Mayan and very few tourists go near there. It was Xunantunich. Go look around with Google Maps and tell us again there's no where to grow crops there. You're all so fast to dismiss me when none of you know more about this than me and I don't care where you sat in a classroom to get your degree. And the giant leaps to take what I've said so completely out of context here is stunning. You all didn't read what I said at all, you all projected your own made up interpretations onto me so you had something to bitch about.
- oblib 5y ago
  Alright.. I'll address those points head on by adding detail to the reasoning behind my hypothesis. 1) Everyone of the sites I've been to with a grand structure had many lessor structures around the main pyramid. I think it's probably accurate to say that on most all cases those large pyramids were built in stages and transformed into being used mainly for ceremonial purposes during and/or after lessor structures were built all around it to catch that cool breeze on those hot and humid days. As communities grew courtyards and markets and sports fields were built, and around them were elevated areas, not so much different than our own sports arenas now, for people to gather and watch and sit in a cool breeze on hot days. Take a wider look at Palenque. That tiny tower is surrounded by structures there that are terraced with perfect amount of room to sit and eat and relax in a cool breeze. Very few have any or much indoor space because they were not created to provide that. 2) Again, all of those large pyramids were built in stages and all of them have smaller structures underneath the big one. Some of them evolved into what we might call a "temple" but around all of those are many lessor buildings with elevated spaces to sit and relax and catch a cool breeze. Go look at photos of any of them. 3) Not on all of those structures. Uxmal is a prime example of where that's true but it's surrounded by buildings and structures that provide easy to climb stairs to elevated places to cool off, and again that giant structure was built in stages and ended up being used for ceremonial purposes. It evolved into the temple it became. 4-5) I did not say "Big fields of crops" in regards to where they were working, but again, that's just not accurate. There is ample evidence of deforestation and agriculture on a lot of those hillsides and valleys surrounding those sites and not all of the locations where those sites exist are mountainous. And there is no way to sustain a large city without a thriving agriculture surrounding it. It makes no sense to build a city where it cannot sustain itself. Some sites are on pretty flat lands. Tolum is an example of that. And consistent to where it's located there are no huge pyramids there because there's a breeze on the cliff face on the ocean front. But just just a city block inward of that it can be stifling hot and humid. Better yet, go to google maps and check out "Zona Arqueológica Xcambó". This is yet another site I visited and noticed how refreshing the breeze was on those buildings there. Unlike Tolum, that site is just slightly above sea level and most all the structures there are built with easy to climb stairs and have large decks to sit on and prepare and eat a meal. 6) What you're talking about there has nothing to do with why they were used when they were used. In some cases it could be their exodus from those metro areas had to do with drought and famine, and something similar probably happened at Cahokia. And we really don't know much about their use during and after the European invasion. Their historical records were destroyed for the most part and most of them were captured and enslaved or chased far into the mountains and forest and jungles and either murdered or enslaved as the invasions expanded. There's no good reason to assume sites like Tolum and Xcambó were uninhabited when the Spaniards arrived. There is clear evidence they were all rounded up and either enslaved or murdered. And now, via lidar, we know there are all kinds of structures around and on the top of those hills that have been grown over. So we know they didn't have to "walk a fair distance to the pyramid". It really doesn't make a lot of sense to build so many of these otherwise. And they served a dual purpose. They cleared rock from areas to grow crops and they had to pile the rock somewhere. Why not make a platform to gather, cook, eat, catch a cool breeze, and rest and socialize. Truth is all I'm really pointing out here is really quite obvious if you go and spend some time there. Go to Cahokia on a hot summer afternoon and test it out. Spend an hour outside in the park below the big mound taking in the sites. When you're good and hot and sweaty, and you will be, go climb that big mound. The first thing you'll notice is the cool breeze and the wonderful relief it offers. Look at the layout of that structure. It's perfectly designed for a lot of people to catch that cool breeze after working a long hot shift in the fields around it. And it's really not good for anything else. There's really no other great reason for it to exist, and something that big requires a great reason. You spend that hour below it on a hot summer day and you'll know why that breeze is a great reason to build that mound. Of course you have to keep in mind there is no other escape from the heat. The same thing happens at Xcambó, and those are not near as big or high as the big pyramid at Uxmal. But they're perfect to catch the cool breeze coming off the gulf. And the same is true a Uxmal. there are all kinds of structures there with elevated decks and patios that offer a refreshing breeze. They are equivalent to modern day Air Conditioning. Some of them evolved into temples like Uxmal, but all of those have lessor structures design to provide a cool breeze surrounding them. Every one of them have that in common. BTW, my wife's great uncle, Lowell Houser, also spent a lot of time with the Mayans and he did worked on some research projects with archeologist there. He left a lot of memos, letters, paintings and drawings behind and we have quite a few of them. I never got to meet him but I've heard quite a few stories of experiences he recounted from my wife and her family members and have read most all of what we have written by him. You can see some of his artwork at the Ames, Iowa Post office: https://www.ameshistory.org/content/evolution-corn-post-office-mural https://www.ameshistory.org/content/evolution-corn-post-offi... The point is, I've spent quite a bit of time studying this topic. I live on a site that was one of the largest indigenous cities in south western Missouri and there are artifacts all around me and I did not claim the Mayans or any of their potential trade goods made it here. I've not seen anything similar that was found here, or anywhere else in the U.S. I've been for that matter. I made a point to reach out and ask questions and listen to the Mayans I met while spending time in the Yucatan. I was humble. I broke the ice by showing them my "Espanol for dummies" book and asked questions. I did not tell them what their history is. I handed them my book and asked them to tell me. I have honestly had Park Rangers and citizens there tell me both Americans and specifically our archeologists that come there are generally arrogant and dismissive and that bothers them a lot. Enough to make a point for them to tell me it does. You should take this hypothesis and research it and confirm it and publish it and take credit for it. I honestly don't care because it's not mine. It belongs to the Mayans. And if you ask them they'll tell you all about it and a lot more.

by oblib 5y ago

AlotOfReading 5y ago

I'm not a mesoamericanist. The relationship between indigenous mayans and archeologists is indeed complicated and highly political, but not particularly relevant to our discussion here. Since you seem to be fishing for someone to point out the issues in your pet theories, I find it useful to start from the assumption that historical peoples weren't stupid about how to achieve their goals. Let's look at the cooling platform hypothesis in that light: 1) It takes a lot less labor to build a tower (like they did at palenque) than to build a pyramid. 2) It kind of defeats the purpose of a breeze driven cooling platform to have a big temple and narrow doors taking up most of the usable area. Triadic pyramids might fit the bill except for all the obvious reasons they don't. 3) The stairs are uncomfortably steep even for modern people. 4) The pyramids are pretty far from where they would have grown crops. Instead they're on elevated rocky ground that could support them. 5) Big fields of crops weren't really the classical mayan style of agriculture. Mayans tended to live in reasonable proximity to their fields and it's baffling why they'd walk a fair distance to the pyramid when they could retire to their much closer, presumably comfortable houses. 6) Cooling platforms would have kept being useful, but mayans stopped building, maintaining, or even using these structures in the postclassic. People will tell you a lot of things, particularly in tourist traps. Many will also agree with whatever crazy ideas you come up with in the interests of appearing friendly and/or for money. You don't necessarily need to take everything at face value (a lesson I've been trying to teach my father for years).

oblib 5y ago
You have no good idea about where and how Mayans grew their crops and the notion that those structures were built far away from where they grew and harvested food nothing more than a notion. The Mayans that live there confirmed my assumption. Go tell them they're wrong
oblib 5y ago
I'll tell you what gets their feathers ruffled are guys like you who don't even ask them what they know and think. And the park I'm talking about where that conversation took is not a "tourist trap". Almost every visitor there was Mayan and very few tourists go near there. It was Xunantunich. Go look around with Google Maps and tell us again there's no where to grow crops there. You're all so fast to dismiss me when none of you know more about this than me and I don't care where you sat in a classroom to get your degree. And the giant leaps to take what I've said so completely out of context here is stunning. You all didn't read what I said at all, you all projected your own made up interpretations onto me so you had something to bitch about.
oblib 5y ago
Alright.. I'll address those points head on by adding detail to the reasoning behind my hypothesis. 1) Everyone of the sites I've been to with a grand structure had many lessor structures around the main pyramid. I think it's probably accurate to say that on most all cases those large pyramids were built in stages and transformed into being used mainly for ceremonial purposes during and/or after lessor structures were built all around it to catch that cool breeze on those hot and humid days. As communities grew courtyards and markets and sports fields were built, and around them were elevated areas, not so much different than our own sports arenas now, for people to gather and watch and sit in a cool breeze on hot days. Take a wider look at Palenque. That tiny tower is surrounded by structures there that are terraced with perfect amount of room to sit and eat and relax in a cool breeze. Very few have any or much indoor space because they were not created to provide that. 2) Again, all of those large pyramids were built in stages and all of them have smaller structures underneath the big one. Some of them evolved into what we might call a "temple" but around all of those are many lessor buildings with elevated spaces to sit and relax and catch a cool breeze. Go look at photos of any of them. 3) Not on all of those structures. Uxmal is a prime example of where that's true but it's surrounded by buildings and structures that provide easy to climb stairs to elevated places to cool off, and again that giant structure was built in stages and ended up being used for ceremonial purposes. It evolved into the temple it became. 4-5) I did not say "Big fields of crops" in regards to where they were working, but again, that's just not accurate. There is ample evidence of deforestation and agriculture on a lot of those hillsides and valleys surrounding those sites and not all of the locations where those sites exist are mountainous. And there is no way to sustain a large city without a thriving agriculture surrounding it. It makes no sense to build a city where it cannot sustain itself. Some sites are on pretty flat lands. Tolum is an example of that. And consistent to where it's located there are no huge pyramids there because there's a breeze on the cliff face on the ocean front. But just just a city block inward of that it can be stifling hot and humid. Better yet, go to google maps and check out "Zona Arqueológica Xcambó". This is yet another site I visited and noticed how refreshing the breeze was on those buildings there. Unlike Tolum, that site is just slightly above sea level and most all the structures there are built with easy to climb stairs and have large decks to sit on and prepare and eat a meal. 6) What you're talking about there has nothing to do with why they were used when they were used. In some cases it could be their exodus from those metro areas had to do with drought and famine, and something similar probably happened at Cahokia. And we really don't know much about their use during and after the European invasion. Their historical records were destroyed for the most part and most of them were captured and enslaved or chased far into the mountains and forest and jungles and either murdered or enslaved as the invasions expanded. There's no good reason to assume sites like Tolum and Xcambó were uninhabited when the Spaniards arrived. There is clear evidence they were all rounded up and either enslaved or murdered. And now, via lidar, we know there are all kinds of structures around and on the top of those hills that have been grown over. So we know they didn't have to "walk a fair distance to the pyramid". It really doesn't make a lot of sense to build so many of these otherwise. And they served a dual purpose. They cleared rock from areas to grow crops and they had to pile the rock somewhere. Why not make a platform to gather, cook, eat, catch a cool breeze, and rest and socialize. Truth is all I'm really pointing out here is really quite obvious if you go and spend some time there. Go to Cahokia on a hot summer afternoon and test it out. Spend an hour outside in the park below the big mound taking in the sites. When you're good and hot and sweaty, and you will be, go climb that big mound. The first thing you'll notice is the cool breeze and the wonderful relief it offers. Look at the layout of that structure. It's perfectly designed for a lot of people to catch that cool breeze after working a long hot shift in the fields around it. And it's really not good for anything else. There's really no other great reason for it to exist, and something that big requires a great reason. You spend that hour below it on a hot summer day and you'll know why that breeze is a great reason to build that mound. Of course you have to keep in mind there is no other escape from the heat. The same thing happens at Xcambó, and those are not near as big or high as the big pyramid at Uxmal. But they're perfect to catch the cool breeze coming off the gulf. And the same is true a Uxmal. there are all kinds of structures there with elevated decks and patios that offer a refreshing breeze. They are equivalent to modern day Air Conditioning. Some of them evolved into temples like Uxmal, but all of those have lessor structures design to provide a cool breeze surrounding them. Every one of them have that in common. BTW, my wife's great uncle, Lowell Houser, also spent a lot of time with the Mayans and he did worked on some research projects with archeologist there. He left a lot of memos, letters, paintings and drawings behind and we have quite a few of them. I never got to meet him but I've heard quite a few stories of experiences he recounted from my wife and her family members and have read most all of what we have written by him. You can see some of his artwork at the Ames, Iowa Post office: https://www.ameshistory.org/content/evolution-corn-post-office-mural https://www.ameshistory.org/content/evolution-corn-post-offi... The point is, I've spent quite a bit of time studying this topic. I live on a site that was one of the largest indigenous cities in south western Missouri and there are artifacts all around me and I did not claim the Mayans or any of their potential trade goods made it here. I've not seen anything similar that was found here, or anywhere else in the U.S. I've been for that matter. I made a point to reach out and ask questions and listen to the Mayans I met while spending time in the Yucatan. I was humble. I broke the ice by showing them my "Espanol for dummies" book and asked questions. I did not tell them what their history is. I handed them my book and asked them to tell me. I have honestly had Park Rangers and citizens there tell me both Americans and specifically our archeologists that come there are generally arrogant and dismissive and that bothers them a lot. Enough to make a point for them to tell me it does. You should take this hypothesis and research it and confirm it and publish it and take credit for it. I honestly don't care because it's not mine. It belongs to the Mayans. And if you ask them they'll tell you all about it and a lot more.