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NYC is unusual. Manhattan is mostly solid bedrock, for one. Thus the time it takes to create tunnels below all the pipeworks cannot be overlooked, as it’s a v

NYC is unusual. Manhattan is mostly solid bedrock, for one. Thus the time it takes to create tunnels below all the pipeworks cannot be overlooked, as it’s a very noisy endeavor. Also, the NYC subway system is (or was, pre-covid) 24 hours, extensive, and was forward thinking. The grates and vents you see today sidesteps the heat trapping of, say, the Tube (London). It’s also built robustly because honestly, the riders abuse every feature.

deepsun 6y ago
I feel like solid bedrock is actually a perfect soil type for engineering. Other towns has to account for moving sandy or clay soils, diverting or pumping out their ground waters (sometimes it's even easier to actively freeze large areas of land).
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  Precisely. Here in Prague, the subterranean geology is horrible. Broken rock, cavities, a lot of river deposits, unexpected (and rich) water springs. Not to mention a thick layer of shit dating from 1350 to approximately 1800 along a former ditch that separated the Old Town from the New Town and that served as a latrine for thirty generations of burghers. Building subway tunnels in such conditions is an equivalent of Olympic Games for engineers.
ant6n 6y ago
Plenty of subways get built in bedrock. Its a bit more expensive to tunnel, but not unusual at all. It’s not so easy to use tunnel boring machines, but you can blast. Its also possible to make station caverns right in the rock. Btw, the tunnels aren’t the biggest cost of subway systems. Maybe 15-30%. I think the biggest tickets are usually the stations.
- bradleyjg 6y ago
  As pointed out in part 2, the 2nd Avenue stations are grotesquely large. Sure they are pretty but I’d rather have 4x ugly stations.
  - jessriedel 6y ago
    Large stations are not just unnecessarily expensive, they usually take longer to walk through. Looks nice on opening day, and then a hundred thousand people waste an extra 2 minutes every single day forever.
  - nerfhammer 6y ago
    I'd rather have quad tracks. easier to keep things running 24/7.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  I'm not sure if underground blasting is a good idea when there are skyscrapers nearly a century old aboveground. Hard enough to assume recent building haven't had someone in the loop cutting corners (e.g. concrete that isn't as robust as expected), the old stuff had zero checks during constructions and definitely no computer aided simulations. Honestly it's a miracle that skyscraper collapses are so rare.
  - nobodyandproud 6y ago
    Second ave has little in the way of skyscrapers. It’s mostly residential and small shops. But consider that tunnels are created through mountains (far heavier). Done right, I doubt it’s an issue.
  - Arrath 6y ago
    It's really not a problem. Controlled blasting around vulnerable or weak structures is well studied and practiced by professionals. Computer aided design and modeling has only gotten better over the years. NYC in particular has some very stringent regulations regarding blasting, allowable vibration levels, and so on. Long gone are the days of gung-ho cowboys lighting off fuses leading to piles of dynamite, massive fireballs, and the like. Example reading: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/229071708.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/229071708.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328666110_Large_structure_response_to_high_frequency_excitation_from_rock_blasting https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328666110_Large_str... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297751622_Strains_Induced_in_Urban_Structures_by_Ultra-High_Frequency_Blasting_Rock_Motions_A_Case_Study https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297751622_Strains_I... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315527348_Reducing_Blast_Vibration_Amplitudes_Close-In_to_Structures_of_Sub-Standard_Construction https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315527348_Reducing_... E: Trying to find a paper about blasting a road tunnel in Turkey under some ancient ruins. The stringent restrictions they were under and the things they did to maintain compliance were really, really interesting (as a blasting engineer) but I can't find the damn thing right now.
- nobodyandproud 6y ago
  They’re not built for the same capacity, however. Ironically I think the city may shrink in the coming years, thanks to Covid and the upcoming fiscal crisis.
somethoughts 6y ago
It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of a private mega-project (i.e. office/residential skyscraper) in NYC versus any other urban metro in the rest of the world to compare it to these public works mega-project. Is it mostly more labor costs, general technical challenges, bad project management, general corruption, etc.?
Ericson2314 6y ago
This is classic bad NY exceptionalism (and I'm living in NY as I write this!) - Bedrock is easier - Every city has pipes. Including NYC when they did cut and cover. - Arguably the 1930s IND started the trend of overbuilding. Being redundant with existing lines to drive out an already money-loosing bussiness isn't forward-thinking. - The grates and vents and easier precisely because cut and cover. - Elsewhere people abuse every feature less? More like the NYC subway is not in a state of good repair so the normal wear and tear is more visible.
- nobodyandproud 6y ago
  - I’ll take your word for it, but building above ground seems easier. - NYC is old. We still have steam pipes in active use, and it predates the subway. Also, asbestos. Nor is every city at the same scale. - How do you quantify the amount of tax money that comes in, because the subway enables business? Home taxes are very low in NYC, because of the amount of money generated from business. Rent is high near any station, unless it’s a completely run down neighborhood. It also enables immigrants and students in a way that car-heavy cities can’t match. I know because I was this immigrant and student. We don’t have the problem SF does, as less desirabke neighborhoods are affordable by teachers and nurses. - You know what vents attract? Trash. If not cleaned out it becomes a fire hazard. - Abuse: Absolutely. DC and Boston trains are pristine by comparison, and I’ve ridden trains and railways in Japan. New York is by far the worst, for many reasons. It was even worse in the 70s and 80s, and the mindset never wentvaway.
  - timerol 6y ago
    - Building above ground is easier. But if you're building below ground, bedrock is easier than e.g. alluvial soil or sandy soil. https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/11/23/more-on-station-costs/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/11/23/more-on-statio... - NYC is a brand new city compared to pretty much everywhere but the American West. We're talking about comparisons to Rome here, not comparisons to LA. And Rome is about 3x cheaper to build in than LA, which is about 3x cheaper than NYC. https://transitcosts.com/what-does-the-data-say/ https://transitcosts.com/what-does-the-data-say/
sesuximo 6y ago
OT: I’ve often thought the easiest way to alleviate the MTA’s load would be to make it affordable/desirable to live near work. It seems unnecessary and painful to have to commute ~1hr from one side of the city to the other especially when the city can’t afford the metro system.

deepsun 6y ago

I feel like solid bedrock is actually a perfect soil type for engineering. Other towns has to account for moving sandy or clay soils, diverting or pumping out their ground waters (sometimes it's even easier to actively freeze large areas of land).

inglor_cz 6y ago
Precisely. Here in Prague, the subterranean geology is horrible. Broken rock, cavities, a lot of river deposits, unexpected (and rich) water springs. Not to mention a thick layer of shit dating from 1350 to approximately 1800 along a former ditch that separated the Old Town from the New Town and that served as a latrine for thirty generations of burghers. Building subway tunnels in such conditions is an equivalent of Olympic Games for engineers.

ant6n 6y ago

Plenty of subways get built in bedrock. Its a bit more expensive to tunnel, but not unusual at all. It’s not so easy to use tunnel boring machines, but you can blast. Its also possible to make station caverns right in the rock. Btw, the tunnels aren’t the biggest cost of subway systems. Maybe 15-30%. I think the biggest tickets are usually the stations.

bradleyjg 6y ago
As pointed out in part 2, the 2nd Avenue stations are grotesquely large. Sure they are pretty but I’d rather have 4x ugly stations.
- jessriedel 6y ago
  Large stations are not just unnecessarily expensive, they usually take longer to walk through. Looks nice on opening day, and then a hundred thousand people waste an extra 2 minutes every single day forever.
- nerfhammer 6y ago
  I'd rather have quad tracks. easier to keep things running 24/7.
mschuster91 6y ago
I'm not sure if underground blasting is a good idea when there are skyscrapers nearly a century old aboveground. Hard enough to assume recent building haven't had someone in the loop cutting corners (e.g. concrete that isn't as robust as expected), the old stuff had zero checks during constructions and definitely no computer aided simulations. Honestly it's a miracle that skyscraper collapses are so rare.
- nobodyandproud 6y ago
  Second ave has little in the way of skyscrapers. It’s mostly residential and small shops. But consider that tunnels are created through mountains (far heavier). Done right, I doubt it’s an issue.
- Arrath 6y ago
  It's really not a problem. Controlled blasting around vulnerable or weak structures is well studied and practiced by professionals. Computer aided design and modeling has only gotten better over the years. NYC in particular has some very stringent regulations regarding blasting, allowable vibration levels, and so on. Long gone are the days of gung-ho cowboys lighting off fuses leading to piles of dynamite, massive fireballs, and the like. Example reading: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/229071708.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/229071708.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328666110_Large_structure_response_to_high_frequency_excitation_from_rock_blasting https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328666110_Large_str... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297751622_Strains_Induced_in_Urban_Structures_by_Ultra-High_Frequency_Blasting_Rock_Motions_A_Case_Study https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297751622_Strains_I... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315527348_Reducing_Blast_Vibration_Amplitudes_Close-In_to_Structures_of_Sub-Standard_Construction https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315527348_Reducing_... E: Trying to find a paper about blasting a road tunnel in Turkey under some ancient ruins. The stringent restrictions they were under and the things they did to maintain compliance were really, really interesting (as a blasting engineer) but I can't find the damn thing right now.
nobodyandproud 6y ago
They’re not built for the same capacity, however. Ironically I think the city may shrink in the coming years, thanks to Covid and the upcoming fiscal crisis.

somethoughts 6y ago

It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of a private mega-project (i.e. office/residential skyscraper) in NYC versus any other urban metro in the rest of the world to compare it to these public works mega-project. Is it mostly more labor costs, general technical challenges, bad project management, general corruption, etc.?

Ericson2314 6y ago

This is classic bad NY exceptionalism (and I'm living in NY as I write this!) - Bedrock is easier - Every city has pipes. Including NYC when they did cut and cover. - Arguably the 1930s IND started the trend of overbuilding. Being redundant with existing lines to drive out an already money-loosing bussiness isn't forward-thinking. - The grates and vents and easier precisely because cut and cover. - Elsewhere people abuse every feature less? More like the NYC subway is not in a state of good repair so the normal wear and tear is more visible.

nobodyandproud 6y ago
- I’ll take your word for it, but building above ground seems easier. - NYC is old. We still have steam pipes in active use, and it predates the subway. Also, asbestos. Nor is every city at the same scale. - How do you quantify the amount of tax money that comes in, because the subway enables business? Home taxes are very low in NYC, because of the amount of money generated from business. Rent is high near any station, unless it’s a completely run down neighborhood. It also enables immigrants and students in a way that car-heavy cities can’t match. I know because I was this immigrant and student. We don’t have the problem SF does, as less desirabke neighborhoods are affordable by teachers and nurses. - You know what vents attract? Trash. If not cleaned out it becomes a fire hazard. - Abuse: Absolutely. DC and Boston trains are pristine by comparison, and I’ve ridden trains and railways in Japan. New York is by far the worst, for many reasons. It was even worse in the 70s and 80s, and the mindset never wentvaway.
- timerol 6y ago
  - Building above ground is easier. But if you're building below ground, bedrock is easier than e.g. alluvial soil or sandy soil. https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/11/23/more-on-station-costs/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2020/11/23/more-on-statio... - NYC is a brand new city compared to pretty much everywhere but the American West. We're talking about comparisons to Rome here, not comparisons to LA. And Rome is about 3x cheaper to build in than LA, which is about 3x cheaper than NYC. https://transitcosts.com/what-does-the-data-say/ https://transitcosts.com/what-does-the-data-say/

sesuximo 6y ago

OT: I’ve often thought the easiest way to alleviate the MTA’s load would be to make it affordable/desirable to live near work. It seems unnecessary and painful to have to commute ~1hr from one side of the city to the other especially when the city can’t afford the metro system.