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As someone who has a lot to lose if nazis ever get back in power: isn't the correct thing to still register their domains and just go to the police with it? B

As someone who has a lot to lose if nazis ever get back in power: isn't the correct thing to still register their domains and just go to the police with it? Based on my sysadmin background I actively try to know as little about my customers as possible: sure I might become a hero whistleblower but more likely I'll taint myself in various ways.

smcl 6y ago
I think life as a neo-nazi should be as difficult as humanly possible so I'd try find a way to boot them off any service I operate. It's likely many hosting providers etc have a "no illegal stuff or neo-nazi shit" clause in their TOS. A few of these sites have bounced around providers before landing with Epik, so it doesn't seem to be rare or hard to do. It's a choice Epik have made to, if not welcome them then tolerate them. Sorry if that might seem naive, if it makes anyone feel better I'm not operating a domain registrar or hosting provider so my opinion is kind of moot anyway :)
- skinkestek 6y ago
  > I think life as a neo-nazi should be as difficult as humanly possible We are not far away from each other on the goal here it seems only in how to achieve it.
- busymom0 6y ago
  When one doesn't defend free speech for those they don't like, then they don't care about free speech. Would you rather have them run their site in open so people can simply not visit their site and others can watch for vile stuff they might be talking about? Or put them under the rug so they go even more underground with even less opposing view points and thus falling in their echo chambers? Also now a days any opposing speech gets classified as nazis and white supremacist etc labels. Take Tulsi Gabbard getting her Adsense account censored by Google for example and getting called a russian agent and then it escalating to her supporters being called nazis and Assad toadies. Bernie supporters got called misogynsts for political purposes. The censorship tools always get abused eventually on those who advocated for it. Related article on how ACLU used to defend free speech of even neo-nazis but have since then abandoned their principles and now actively give their data to Facebook: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/aclu-again-cowardly-abstains-from https://greenwald.substack.com/p/aclu-again-cowardly-abstain... https://news.yahoo.com/aclu-says-shares-user-data-134345916.html https://news.yahoo.com/aclu-says-shares-user-data-134345916.... Now censorship is being used against animal rights groups: https://outsidevoices.substack.com/p/the-targets-of-bidens-war-on-domestic https://outsidevoices.substack.com/p/the-targets-of-bidens-w... Even CloudFlare defended hosting terrorist site for "free speech" reasons: https://www.fastcompany.com/90312063/how-cloudflare-straddles-its-role-as-privacy-champion-and-hate-speech-enabler https://www.fastcompany.com/90312063/how-cloudflare-straddle... https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/
  - smcl 6y ago
    Nah I'd kick Stormfront off my platform without a moment of hesitation
  - snotrockets 6y ago
    This isn't about free speech. It's about not being labeled a sympathizer.
    - busymom0 6y ago
      Was ACLU a neo nazi sympathizer in 1970s?
      - snotrockets 6y ago
        I think ACLU are severely misguided, if not acting dangerously in their active support of a CLIENT rather than a CAUSE, and thus actively supporting and encouraging proprietors of hate speech. Those who are already clicking on "reply" ready quote Niemöller's poem back to me should expect to be quoted Popper back, and be reminded that those that came for Niemöller are the same ones they wish to protect, and that those assholes wouldn't lift a finger to help you back: they'd rather punch you. It's not a bad idea to punch them back and remind them that they have no place in society, and should crawl back to whatever beerhall they crawled out from.
- smolder 6y ago
  How does one effectively police who is a neo Nazi? This thread is about the failures of customer service and anti-abuse techniques at scale, the inevitable false positives and the dire consequences. You seem to be advocating for more of that. With broadly applied rules, you either have to accept some rule breaking will occur, or accept that you will end up punishing the innocent in efforts to prevent it. Realistically it's both, but there is a give and take between them. Those inevitably flawed systems are not an ultimate solution to the problems they mitigate. To tackle the problems stemming from bigotry and intolerance, for example, attacking the perpetrators as "bad people" doesn't work, and is a bit self defeating. The goal should be to defeat the harmful ideas underpinning it, through positive proof of better ideas.
- iagovar 6y ago
  Problem is that everyone is a nazi nowadays, except the ones calling others nazis.
  - snotrockets 6y ago
    A paradox, as they declare themselves such.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
snotrockets 6y ago
No, because this isn't a Phillip K Dick novel. Police don't do pre-crime: they comes after the crime happened. We are also not the police. You needn't ask your customers "Are you going to do something bad?" (sometimes regulation forces you to ask if they _did_, but that's a past-looking question). But once you know they are using that service for unacceptable activities, it's ok to remind them that such behavior is unacceptable. After all, you don't want having a reputation of the place that has those kind of customers.

smcl 6y ago

I think life as a neo-nazi should be as difficult as humanly possible so I'd try find a way to boot them off any service I operate. It's likely many hosting providers etc have a "no illegal stuff or neo-nazi shit" clause in their TOS. A few of these sites have bounced around providers before landing with Epik, so it doesn't seem to be rare or hard to do. It's a choice Epik have made to, if not welcome them then tolerate them. Sorry if that might seem naive, if it makes anyone feel better I'm not operating a domain registrar or hosting provider so my opinion is kind of moot anyway :)

skinkestek 6y ago
> I think life as a neo-nazi should be as difficult as humanly possible We are not far away from each other on the goal here it seems only in how to achieve it.
busymom0 6y ago
When one doesn't defend free speech for those they don't like, then they don't care about free speech. Would you rather have them run their site in open so people can simply not visit their site and others can watch for vile stuff they might be talking about? Or put them under the rug so they go even more underground with even less opposing view points and thus falling in their echo chambers? Also now a days any opposing speech gets classified as nazis and white supremacist etc labels. Take Tulsi Gabbard getting her Adsense account censored by Google for example and getting called a russian agent and then it escalating to her supporters being called nazis and Assad toadies. Bernie supporters got called misogynsts for political purposes. The censorship tools always get abused eventually on those who advocated for it. Related article on how ACLU used to defend free speech of even neo-nazis but have since then abandoned their principles and now actively give their data to Facebook: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/aclu-again-cowardly-abstains-from https://greenwald.substack.com/p/aclu-again-cowardly-abstain... https://news.yahoo.com/aclu-says-shares-user-data-134345916.html https://news.yahoo.com/aclu-says-shares-user-data-134345916.... Now censorship is being used against animal rights groups: https://outsidevoices.substack.com/p/the-targets-of-bidens-war-on-domestic https://outsidevoices.substack.com/p/the-targets-of-bidens-w... Even CloudFlare defended hosting terrorist site for "free speech" reasons: https://www.fastcompany.com/90312063/how-cloudflare-straddles-its-role-as-privacy-champion-and-hate-speech-enabler https://www.fastcompany.com/90312063/how-cloudflare-straddle... https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/
- smcl 6y ago
  Nah I'd kick Stormfront off my platform without a moment of hesitation
- snotrockets 6y ago
  This isn't about free speech. It's about not being labeled a sympathizer.
  - busymom0 6y ago
    Was ACLU a neo nazi sympathizer in 1970s?
    - snotrockets 6y ago
      I think ACLU are severely misguided, if not acting dangerously in their active support of a CLIENT rather than a CAUSE, and thus actively supporting and encouraging proprietors of hate speech. Those who are already clicking on "reply" ready quote Niemöller's poem back to me should expect to be quoted Popper back, and be reminded that those that came for Niemöller are the same ones they wish to protect, and that those assholes wouldn't lift a finger to help you back: they'd rather punch you. It's not a bad idea to punch them back and remind them that they have no place in society, and should crawl back to whatever beerhall they crawled out from.
smolder 6y ago
How does one effectively police who is a neo Nazi? This thread is about the failures of customer service and anti-abuse techniques at scale, the inevitable false positives and the dire consequences. You seem to be advocating for more of that. With broadly applied rules, you either have to accept some rule breaking will occur, or accept that you will end up punishing the innocent in efforts to prevent it. Realistically it's both, but there is a give and take between them. Those inevitably flawed systems are not an ultimate solution to the problems they mitigate. To tackle the problems stemming from bigotry and intolerance, for example, attacking the perpetrators as "bad people" doesn't work, and is a bit self defeating. The goal should be to defeat the harmful ideas underpinning it, through positive proof of better ideas.
iagovar 6y ago
Problem is that everyone is a nazi nowadays, except the ones calling others nazis.
- snotrockets 6y ago
  A paradox, as they declare themselves such.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

snotrockets 6y ago

No, because this isn't a Phillip K Dick novel. Police don't do pre-crime: they comes after the crime happened. We are also not the police. You needn't ask your customers "Are you going to do something bad?" (sometimes regulation forces you to ask if they _did_, but that's a past-looking question). But once you know they are using that service for unacceptable activities, it's ok to remind them that such behavior is unacceptable. After all, you don't want having a reputation of the place that has those kind of customers.